Originally Posted by Zastava-Arms

Can somebody give me some good answers now?

Depends, they're still deep modernisations of 2nd gen tanks, if you want to put them against the best 3gen tanks they'd still need at least 2-1 ratio to have a chance, probably larger.

Make no mistake they're good tanks but these countries dont have the money or technology and the base vehicle is limited as to what can be done to it, they're good 2nd gen tanks though.

To me, both look very good tanks for that category and very close, but maybe M-84AS would be a little bit better because of the developed design is based on.

Btw, I like both.

Originally Posted by Titanium

To me, both look very good tanks for that category and very close, but maybe M-84AS would be a little bit better because of the developed design is based on.

Btw, I like both.

They're both based on the same design.

Originally Posted by Titanium

To me, both look very good tanks for that category and very close, but maybe M-84AS would be a little bit better because of the developed design is based on.

Btw, I like both.

Yeah, they are both modernised M-84's lol


Well, doesnt Isael [Or was it Turkey?] have an extremely modernised M60 Patton in service [I remember sherman saying something about it ages ago]? Why would they bother with a modernised M60 Patton, which came out in the 60's, if it was no good against other more better tanks?

israel currently has the magach 7 (a hugely modernized m60a3) in reserves. the merkavas are their tanks that are active. but i suppose if there ever was another huge war on the 67/73 scale they might be put into action.

Originally Posted by Panzercracker

They're both based on the same design.

Originally Posted by Zastava-Arms

Yeah, they are both modernised M-84's lol

Ops, thought Croatian one was totally designed and build from scratch, so both are even closer.

Put me one of each!

Originally Posted by Zastava-Arms

Yeah, they are both modernised M-84's lol


Well, doesnt Isael [Or was it Turkey?] have an extremely modernised M60 Patton in service [I remember sherman saying something about it ages ago]? Why would they bother with a modernised M60 Patton, which came out in the 60's, if it was no good against other more better tanks?

It depends on the level of modernization.
Israelis have the tech to modernize some weapons platforms that makes machines that would otherwise be seriously lacking in modern technology serious contenders. The Russian aircraft would be a good example. Without Israeli upgrades, they probably wouldn't get a lot of buyers. But with the upgrades, they are serious machines.
So just because it's an upgraded 2nd generation tank doesn't make them equal. It depends on who upgraded it and how. The upgraded M-60s would also have a hard time dealing with top of the line MBTs as well.

If you're not going to be happy with anything less than a full agreement about how awesome the M-95 (which is still in the prototype stage) and the M-84AS is then asking for people's opinion about it isn't really smart.

Im not saying that a M-84AS could take down a Leo2, im just wondering how it would compare to other MBT's. Like, the ratio.

Im pretty sure a Merkava would axe anything the Balkan countries can produce lol.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

It depends on the level of modernization..

It depends on the money, Israel devotes a gigantic amount of its budget to the army.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Israelis have the tech to modernize some weapons platforms that makes machines that would otherwise be seriously lacking in modern technology serious contenders.

Serious contenders against what? Can you give examples of these awesome modernisations? As for technology Israel is not better than any other developed country worse than a few (its fighter being sub par for example).

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

The Russian aircraft would be a good example. Without Israeli upgrades, they probably wouldn't get a lot of buyers. But with the upgrades, they are serious machines.

What Russian aircraft????

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

So just because it's an upgraded 2nd generation tank doesn't make them equal. It depends on who upgraded it and how. The upgraded M-60s would also have a hard time dealing with top of the line MBTs as well.

Unless extremely lucky they'd get massacred not "have a hard time".

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

If you're not going to be happy with anything less than a full agreement about how awesome the M-95 (which is still in the prototype stage) and the M-84AS is then asking for people's opinion about it isn't really smart.

They're awesome, with a 120mm main gun and modern ammo they have the same level of firepower as 3gen MBTs, they're MUCH faster and manouvarable than any M-60 variant.

If you're discussing M-60 then Sabra (which is much more advanced than Israeli variants) is something to compare it too and its still inferior (15 kmph slower, armor steel and laminates which means its probably also weaker.

M-95 is fast, powerfull, reasonably armored, the main beef i'd have is that its not open to further modernisations, the only thing you could would be to mess around with the hull and thats where buying a new used 3gen MBT comes cheaper.

The problem is not in technology but in money, small countries like Croatia dont have the funds to R&D a 3gen MBT so these are "economy class" tanks.

still it comes down to the gunn it have ,the 1 with the bigger stick always win the fight