Looks like Bailouts are the "in" thing
The Other Guy
Spam King
Give me one, too. But give me the money in Euros, so it will have more value.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Me too. In gold if possible. Need massive bailout.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Nice chart hehe
Auto bailout: Showdown
Should Congress bail out the Big Three? Here's what lawmakers are considering and what's at stake.
By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
Last Updated: November 17, 2008: 7:54 AM ET
This week, Congress will consider whether to cough up billions of dollars to bail out the troubled companies.
There are loud advocates with strong arguments on both sides.
Proponents of a bailout say that the industry is a victim of the global financial crisis. Wall Street has been bailed out, so why not Detroit?
They say millions of jobs could be lost and more than $100 billion in wages sliced out of an already-fragile U.S. economy.
"It would be a travesty for the irresponsible, reckless behavior of Wall Street to result in the sweeping away of the American automobile industry," said Mike Jackson, CEO of Autonation, the nation's largest auto dealership group. "If indeed it came to bankruptcy, it's going to make what happened with Lehman Brothers and all the consequences of that a nice day."
On the other side are those who feel just as strongly that the automakers' problems are their own doing, born of bad business decisions, uncompetitive labor agreements and vehicles that Americans have decided are second-rate.
They say a bailout will only postpone the inevitable, and that the failure of one or more of the companies is necessary if the economy is to work properly.
"The Big Three's financial straits are not the product of our current economic downturn, but instead are the legacy of the uncompetitive structure of their manufacturing and labor force," said Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., the ranking member of the Senate Banking Committee. "I do not support the use of U.S taxpayer dollars to reward the mismanagement of Detroit-based auto manufacturers."
Indeed, opposition to a bailout is widespread. GM and the other Detroit automakers are trying to win support from an American public that has largely turned their back on them. Sales by the U.S. companies account for only 47% of domestic sales this year, according to sales tracker Autodata.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/17/news/companies/gm_showdown/
Should Congress bail out the Big Three? Here's what lawmakers are considering and what's at stake.
By Chris Isidore, CNNMoney.com senior writer
Last Updated: November 17, 2008: 7:54 AM ET
This week, Congress will consider whether to cough up billions of dollars to bail out the troubled companies.
There are loud advocates with strong arguments on both sides.
Proponents of a bailout say that the industry is a victim of the global financial crisis. Wall Street has been bailed out, so why not Detroit?
They say millions of jobs could be lost and more than $100 billion in wages sliced out of an already-fragile U.S. economy.
"It would be a travesty for the irresponsible, reckless behavior of Wall Street to result in the sweeping away of the American automobile industry," said Mike Jackson, CEO of Autonation, the nation's largest auto dealership group. "If indeed it came to bankruptcy, it's going to make what happened with Lehman Brothers and all the consequences of that a nice day."
On the other side are those who feel just as strongly that the automakers' problems are their own doing, born of bad business decisions, uncompetitive labor agreements and vehicles that Americans have decided are second-rate.
They say a bailout will only postpone the inevitable, and that the failure of one or more of the companies is necessary if the economy is to work properly.
"The Big Three's financial straits are not the product of our current economic downturn, but instead are the legacy of the uncompetitive structure of their manufacturing and labor force," said Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., the ranking member of the Senate Banking Committee. "I do not support the use of U.S taxpayer dollars to reward the mismanagement of Detroit-based auto manufacturers."
Indeed, opposition to a bailout is widespread. GM and the other Detroit automakers are trying to win support from an American public that has largely turned their back on them. Sales by the U.S. companies account for only 47% of domestic sales this year, according to sales tracker Autodata.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/17/news/companies/gm_showdown/
The Other Guy
Spam King
If somebody bet a lot of money in 1968 that in 40 years America would elect a black President and General Motors would be on its deathbed, that person would be well-off today.
mmarsh
Active member
The question isn't about should we bailout the auto industry. The Bush Administration, the GOP and the Democrats all agree that a bailout is necessary. That isn't even the question. The bailout WILL happen, simply because letting Detroit go under would be a massive blow to the US economy, cost about 3 Million Jobs and push unemployment into the 10% range. Obviously nobody wants this.
The question is where is the Money going to come from.
The Dems want to use part of the $780 Billion that was given to the Wall Street banks. The GOP wants to use funds set aside for researching new alternative fuel cars for the Bailout. The Dems say this that is a non-starter.
Frankly the Dems are right on this. We need to get off oil for a variety of reasons that should be obvious, and the only way thats going to happen is to replace the combustion engines with something else. The oil industry has worked feverish since the 1970s to kill off alternative-fuel automobiles, and of course the ties between the GOP and big oil and well known. Meanwhile the automakers would just love an excuse to push out another gas-guzzling Hummer because the profit margin is greater and because they are lazy. R&D into new ideas cost money and the auto industry would prefer live in the past pushing techology thats clearly obsolete rather that investing in the future. Which is why the Asians are going to beat the pants off the US auto industry once again.
What everybody doesnt realize is that the current drop in oil is only temporary, the moment the US economy stablizes the price wil start to rise again.
The question is where is the Money going to come from.
The Dems want to use part of the $780 Billion that was given to the Wall Street banks. The GOP wants to use funds set aside for researching new alternative fuel cars for the Bailout. The Dems say this that is a non-starter.
Frankly the Dems are right on this. We need to get off oil for a variety of reasons that should be obvious, and the only way thats going to happen is to replace the combustion engines with something else. The oil industry has worked feverish since the 1970s to kill off alternative-fuel automobiles, and of course the ties between the GOP and big oil and well known. Meanwhile the automakers would just love an excuse to push out another gas-guzzling Hummer because the profit margin is greater and because they are lazy. R&D into new ideas cost money and the auto industry would prefer live in the past pushing techology thats clearly obsolete rather that investing in the future. Which is why the Asians are going to beat the pants off the US auto industry once again.
What everybody doesnt realize is that the current drop in oil is only temporary, the moment the US economy stablizes the price wil start to rise again.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Yeah the alternative fuel thing is possibly one of the most important projects and objectives we have going right now. Seriously... we got to rely less on oil.
The Other Guy
Spam King
the Chevrolet Volt may be the perfect car along these lines-- if GM lasts long enough to put it in production.
A Can of Man
Je suis aware
Tradition.
Chief Bones
Forums Grumpy Old Man
We don't need another 1929 stock market crash ............
Allowing the Big 3 to go under, would sound a death knell for American economics and would muster in a greater depression than the stock market crash of the 1929's.
It would completely undercut America's standing in the world economy in a way that no other incident has ever done.
You wouldn't be able to get 2 cents for every dollars worth of paper that backs up America's debt.
Allowing the Big 3 to go under, would sound a death knell for American economics and would muster in a greater depression than the stock market crash of the 1929's.
It would completely undercut America's standing in the world economy in a way that no other incident has ever done.
You wouldn't be able to get 2 cents for every dollars worth of paper that backs up America's debt.
That is NOT a picture I even care to contemplate ... how about you???
I'm to old to sell apples on Main Street ....... :lol: :wink:
Easy. Small gold coins. When the mob is at your front door, you hurl handfuls of small gold coins out of the top windows and make your escape out of the back door.
The Other Guy
Spam King
DTop:
The nationalized healthcare provided to the Japanese companies gives them an even larger advantage. It's not the current workers that are the problem, it's the former workers' pensions and healthcare that hurt. Though I overall agree with the stance presented, I don't like the idea of lowering workman's comp.
The nationalized healthcare provided to the Japanese companies gives them an even larger advantage. It's not the current workers that are the problem, it's the former workers' pensions and healthcare that hurt. Though I overall agree with the stance presented, I don't like the idea of lowering workman's comp.
Damien435
Active member
Unions have outlived their usefulness and have too much power over business in America. In Wadena, MN there is a company called Homecrest Outdoor Living, name is a bit of a misconception because they make indoor furniture as well as outdoor furniture, back to the point though. Homecrest cannot match their competitors prices because the market is being flooded with cheap furniture from China of almost identical quality, the cost of materials is the same for both Homecrest and their Chinese competitors but China has no unions and can keep costs down by keeping wages down. This is, I believe, the largest problem facing American industry right now, the adversarial relationship between business and unions means that both sides are only looking out for their own interests, business meaning the company officers and shareholders who want to cut costs to increase profits which means an increase in personal gain and unions which are looking to increase employee wages and benefits. Neither side is truly looking out for the well being of the company. Government needs to serve as a medator between unions and business, as happens in Europe, and make decisions that will best serve everyone, not just one side or the other. Union leaders need to realize that taking a paycut and dropping from $28 to $22 an hour is a far better alternative to getting fired. That's the first problem I think we need to face to get our economy back on track, take away the unions power and make decisions that are best for the company, not the special interests of the two different sides.
Second, the coming Green Revolution needs to be embraced. Oil was the fuel of yesterday, we have a finite supply, the good news is that capitalist economic practices means we will never run out of oil. It's true, as a political scientist or economist, they'll tell you, in a world-wide capitalist system we will never run out of oil. Eventually demand will become so high and prices so ridiculous only the rich will be able to afford oil for heating their homes and powering their automobiles. How did oil first become a part of our daily lives? We first started using oil and its by products for heating and lighting our homes because whale oil was becoming too scarce and costly for the average person to afford. America did not become the world's most powerful nation (both through the use of hard and soft power) simply because God chose us to fulfill this role. Our forefathers were some pretty smart individuals, they made smart decisions making use of the resources at our disposal to seek large profits both at home and abroad. Our energy infrastructure is in need of massive overhaul anyways, look at the New York blackout a few years ago, caused by old wires that needed to be replaced and have been delayed for years. We have to replace the existing transmission lines in many places anyways, might as well change how we generate our energy while we're at it. Real government investment in renewable energy sources (other than non-cellulosic ethanol) is needed here. The wind is always blowing, the only part of the world where this does not apply, and not all that regularly at that, are the doldrums, and even on the most cloudy days the planet's surface is bombarded with more than enough energy to provide for all of our needs. Our unemployment rate right now is at its highest since Clinton took office, contractors are being hit especially hard with the collapse of the housing market. Put these out of work contractors to work building new transmission lines, building new wind turbine generators, put them to work installing solar panels on schools and hospitals cutting energy costs for both types of buildings. FDR's New Deal did very little to actually help the economy statistically, but it did help to restore confidence and right now America's morale is in the gutter but the building projects from FDR's time in office remain with us to this day, how many dams, roads and bridges built during FDR's presidency are still in place today serving their intended purposes? How many schools built as part of the new deal still see hundreds of kids walk their hallways every day? Right now our infrastructure is in need of being overhauled, building roads and powerlines is not sexy, but a proper infrastructure is necessary to a strong economy. Short term we're pretty well screwed, tapping our own domestic oil supplies will take a decade, non-cellulosic ethanol will never provide enough energy to be a real solution and the increase in food prices far outweighs any benefit at the pump at this point. Cellulosic ethanol is where the true potential is at but right now it's not seeing anywhere near the amount of interest that non-cellulosic ethanol is receiving.
Increase taxes. I'm 21 years old, for people like myself these bailouts are only creating even more problems for us to deal with down the road. $10.4 trillion in debt right now, 60% of that owed to foreign governments, the interest on that alone is astronomical and my generation gets to pay it off. I am sick of watching the government dip into the red to pay for services that, quite frankly, I don't expect to receive when I turn 65, 70 or 75 because even our limited welfare system will have to be scrapped to pay off our ever increasing debt. If the government is going to increase spending it has to increases taxes accordingly. When I don't run out of money I don't have the option of printing off a bunch of monopoly money to keep paying for the goods and services I want and quite frankly neither should our government. I know I'm not the only one out there who feels this way either, hell I wrote a paper about this last year that the government needs to increase taxes and increase spending on welfare or be faced with the possibility of violent revolution in the future because that's what happens when you have a large population of disgruntled males with no adaquate means to express their anger with the current political system. I'm not saying we should increase taxes for the wealthiest Americans from 35% of their yearly income or whatever it's at now to 80%, but Congress should always set the tax rate and budget to shoot for a surplus and once we have our debts paid off those surpluses can go back to the people in the form of real tax refunds.
Wow, that was one heck of an incoherent rant. Again, these are just my opinions, and to sum it up quick I'll put it in list form.
Bailouts: bad.
Non-cellulosic ethanol: bad.
Increased spending while decreasing taxes: bad.
Unions: bad but not totally useless.
$10.4 Trillion debt: very bad.
My parents' generation ability to handle money: horrendous.
Outlook: Not good, I would go sit in my mom's car with the garage door closed but those damn hybrids just don't cut it.
Second, the coming Green Revolution needs to be embraced. Oil was the fuel of yesterday, we have a finite supply, the good news is that capitalist economic practices means we will never run out of oil. It's true, as a political scientist or economist, they'll tell you, in a world-wide capitalist system we will never run out of oil. Eventually demand will become so high and prices so ridiculous only the rich will be able to afford oil for heating their homes and powering their automobiles. How did oil first become a part of our daily lives? We first started using oil and its by products for heating and lighting our homes because whale oil was becoming too scarce and costly for the average person to afford. America did not become the world's most powerful nation (both through the use of hard and soft power) simply because God chose us to fulfill this role. Our forefathers were some pretty smart individuals, they made smart decisions making use of the resources at our disposal to seek large profits both at home and abroad. Our energy infrastructure is in need of massive overhaul anyways, look at the New York blackout a few years ago, caused by old wires that needed to be replaced and have been delayed for years. We have to replace the existing transmission lines in many places anyways, might as well change how we generate our energy while we're at it. Real government investment in renewable energy sources (other than non-cellulosic ethanol) is needed here. The wind is always blowing, the only part of the world where this does not apply, and not all that regularly at that, are the doldrums, and even on the most cloudy days the planet's surface is bombarded with more than enough energy to provide for all of our needs. Our unemployment rate right now is at its highest since Clinton took office, contractors are being hit especially hard with the collapse of the housing market. Put these out of work contractors to work building new transmission lines, building new wind turbine generators, put them to work installing solar panels on schools and hospitals cutting energy costs for both types of buildings. FDR's New Deal did very little to actually help the economy statistically, but it did help to restore confidence and right now America's morale is in the gutter but the building projects from FDR's time in office remain with us to this day, how many dams, roads and bridges built during FDR's presidency are still in place today serving their intended purposes? How many schools built as part of the new deal still see hundreds of kids walk their hallways every day? Right now our infrastructure is in need of being overhauled, building roads and powerlines is not sexy, but a proper infrastructure is necessary to a strong economy. Short term we're pretty well screwed, tapping our own domestic oil supplies will take a decade, non-cellulosic ethanol will never provide enough energy to be a real solution and the increase in food prices far outweighs any benefit at the pump at this point. Cellulosic ethanol is where the true potential is at but right now it's not seeing anywhere near the amount of interest that non-cellulosic ethanol is receiving.
Increase taxes. I'm 21 years old, for people like myself these bailouts are only creating even more problems for us to deal with down the road. $10.4 trillion in debt right now, 60% of that owed to foreign governments, the interest on that alone is astronomical and my generation gets to pay it off. I am sick of watching the government dip into the red to pay for services that, quite frankly, I don't expect to receive when I turn 65, 70 or 75 because even our limited welfare system will have to be scrapped to pay off our ever increasing debt. If the government is going to increase spending it has to increases taxes accordingly. When I don't run out of money I don't have the option of printing off a bunch of monopoly money to keep paying for the goods and services I want and quite frankly neither should our government. I know I'm not the only one out there who feels this way either, hell I wrote a paper about this last year that the government needs to increase taxes and increase spending on welfare or be faced with the possibility of violent revolution in the future because that's what happens when you have a large population of disgruntled males with no adaquate means to express their anger with the current political system. I'm not saying we should increase taxes for the wealthiest Americans from 35% of their yearly income or whatever it's at now to 80%, but Congress should always set the tax rate and budget to shoot for a surplus and once we have our debts paid off those surpluses can go back to the people in the form of real tax refunds.
Wow, that was one heck of an incoherent rant. Again, these are just my opinions, and to sum it up quick I'll put it in list form.
Bailouts: bad.
Non-cellulosic ethanol: bad.
Increased spending while decreasing taxes: bad.
Unions: bad but not totally useless.
$10.4 Trillion debt: very bad.
My parents' generation ability to handle money: horrendous.
Outlook: Not good, I would go sit in my mom's car with the garage door closed but those damn hybrids just don't cut it.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
Screw gold coins if there is a mob at my front door I will go with dynamite and a box of nails, $15 in a hardware store buys you about a 20 meter kill zone and awesome mob control.