Originally Posted by 03USMC

Remember this, regardless of the type of goverment be it Communist, Marxist, or Democratic or Dictatorship. In Latin America the Goverments are rife with corruption. The investment dollars do not trickle down to the pobres. They stay with the Rico's. So simply investing only shores up corrupt leaders and gives the Marxists a recruitment pool.

Latin America has no easy answer. But ignoring the a possible ChiCom incursion isn't a road to take.

At the Conference of the Americas Hugo and Ortega were all chummy and parroting each other so niether one should be written off.

Agreed - one could look just south of our border and see the corruption in Mexico, and there will not be a easy answer for this part of the world, lets hope that the U.S has a good sound plan to counter it. It will be intersting to see how China will handle this new adventure.

I think China is out for one thing, just to prove themselves, that communism, and their way of thinking out shown us westerners. To show that they to can achieve feats of world influence, and to show their presence on the United States. Basically, all around the world there are common people talking about the U.S. in one way or another. I don't mean dictators, politicians, I mean the average worker, peasant or party member. I don't know if this is true in China. But I can assure you from what I have seen, no common person speaks of a China, eastern block countries, or any guerllia movement underway now, or in the last tens years, we save that for cable televison, in the U.S., the average person could care less if the Chinese got a foot in Ecuador. I am sure that some people can't tell me what continent that is on.

Originally Posted by Sukio

I think China is out for one thing, just to prove themselves, that communism, and their way of thinking out shown us westerners. To show that they to can achieve feats of world influence, and to show their presence on the United States. Basically, all around the world there are common people talking about the U.S. in one way or another. I don't mean dictators, politicians, I mean the average worker, peasant or party member. I don't know if this is true in China. But I can assure you from what I have seen, no common person speaks of a China, eastern block countries, or any guerllia movement underway now, or in the last tens years, we save that for cable televison, in the U.S., the average person could care less if the Chinese got a foot in Ecuador. I am sure that some people can't tell me what continent that is on.

It sucks being the biggest boy on the block, eventually someone out there will want to challenge that, if the Europeans want to bad mouth us then let them, they are not the ones who experienced a massive attack on their territory like we did, this Jihad war as they call it came with the terms of wiping out the American people and our way of life and be dammed to any nation that wants to turn a blind eye and not help us or themselves. I will also state that Chinese people for the most part have a very good view of American citizens, their feelings is that they deem President Bush as a warmonger so they do not care for him.

Besides the issue of China getting a maybe base or foothold on South America is there any merit building up Colombia or Peru? 03USMC does make a good point in most cases the investment dollar doesn't trickle down. I just think Peru might be a good investment and we kill two or three birds with one stone. I still like to have one country down there to count on and unless we move soon were just be reacting again. I just can't decide if Colombia would make a better choice or not but it seems were been trying to work with them for 20 plus years with little success. The FARC are still operational and the government seem satisfied with the rural city split of the country. Colombia receives a lot of aide from us and has for many year makes me think if Peru might be a better choice. To be honest I don't know a lot about Peru I'm finding web sites but are are in Spanish. Military wise I know the US Navy and US Marines held exercisers there at least once in resent times. Looking around a little on Peruvian web sites I found we did some training near Iquitos with Peruvian forces. I attached some links I found the first gives a little breakdown on what and where some US Forces currently are. I still think doing nothing is wrong and I am older enough to remember Daniel Ortega's first go around as El Presidente of Nicaragua.

Published on Saturday, November 5, 2005 by the World Policy Institute

The Bush Effect: U.S. Military Involvement in Latin America Rises, Development and Humanitarian Aid Fall

by Frida Berrigan and Jonathan Wingo

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1105-21.htm


1998
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/news....aspx?id=41234

1999
http://www.converge.org.nz/lac/articles/news990820a.htm

February 22, 2000
http://drugcaucus.senate.gov/andeswilhelm.html

Washington escalates military buildup in Latin America

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jan2003/la-j23.shtml

What about Brazil, they have already are in the process of purchasing French fighters to counter the Chavez movement in his Russian investment with more arms to follow.

Brazil bough I believe 12 Mirage 2000-Cs model fighters a few years back these fighters aren't the MICA capable nor do they have the RDY or RC400 radar in then. Brazil wen through a two year process to buy fighters which in the end canceled the whole bid process and went cheap with the used Mirage almost basic 2000 model. They have a capable AF with high end F-5 III upgraded datalinks and all, more then 40+. The Mirage purchase wasn't because Venezuela bought Flankers they just needed a replacement fighter badly there Mirage III or Brazilian named F103 were 25 years old. Brazil's in another fighter bid process currently the first one was put on a three year waiting period. Front runners are Rafale, Su-30, Su-35, Brazil's a French shop and painfully years from (Brazil slow) now Frances Rafale might get a sale. Because of Brazil's size Flankers would be a better choice but unlikely. Brazil is top dog in South America and don't feel Venezuela is too much a threat to them as of now. Brazil's armed forces are better trained and equipped overall and 4 times larger as well. Brazil's arms industry producers it's own anti-radar missiles one of the few countries in the world that can.
They have AWACS, can build aircraft, they have industry, etc, and have huge off shore oil deposits now waiting to get setup.

Do you think it's worth building up Colombia or Peru for a future allied? Nobody seems to want to touch that I'm interested different views if it's worth it.

We need to be careful when it comes to Latin America and actually deploying Troops. The US's history in the region is viewed with a jaundiced eye by most countries. If we stick to small FMTU's and advisory teams and the rare use of support aircraft in concert with the National forces we could be okay. If you expand presence past that you risk a grass roots campaign against the Yanqui's being launched by opposing political camps.

There is already a trade agreement with Peru pending in Congress. And Peru at the time is probably the most friendly in the andean region. They also have a pretty capable military and National Police Force both of which ran the Sendero Luminoso and MRTA to ground and is expierianced at Low intensity warfare.

The Colombians are going to be key in stopping the manufacture and production of narcotics. But the shipping side is now controlled by Mexican Cartels.Peru's production areas have been taken over by Colombians since the forming of the Medillian and Cali Cartels, and best intel says that FARC is now calling the shots there as well. So FARC needs to be a big time target of both Peru and Colombia.

Peru and Ecuador have no love lost over their border disputes. So I'd say up the aid to Peru and Columbia.

Originally Posted by rock45

Brazil bough I believe 12 Mirage 2000-Cs model fighters a few years back these fighters aren't the MICA capable nor do they have the RDY or RC400 radar in then. Brazil wen through a two year process to buy fighters which in the end canceled the whole bid process and went cheap with the used Mirage almost basic 2000 model. They have a capable AF with high end F-5 III upgraded datalinks and all, more then 40+. The Mirage purchase wasn't because Venezuela bought Flankers they just needed a replacement fighter badly there Mirage III or Brazilian named F103 were 25 years old. Brazil's in another fighter bid process currently the first one was put on a three year waiting period. Front runners are Rafale, Su-30, Su-35, Brazil's a French shop and painfully years from (Brazil slow) now Frances Rafale might get a sale. Because of Brazil's size Flankers would be a better choice but unlikely. Brazil is top dog in South America and don't feel Venezuela is too much a threat to them as of now. Brazil's armed forces are better trained and equipped overall and 4 times larger as well. Brazil's arms industry producers it's own anti-radar missiles one of the few countries in the world that can.
They have AWACS, can build aircraft, they have industry, etc, and have huge off shore oil deposits now waiting to get setup.

Do you think it's worth building up Colombia or Peru for a future allied? Nobody seems to want to touch that I'm interested different views if it's worth it.

They have just announced that they will most likely purchase 36 Rafaels for 2.2 billion dollars which Rafael should be happy with some sales finally.

Brazil is very concerned with Venezuelas recent military procurements and future items that Chavez is looking at purchasing, but yes I do think that Brazil is capable of handling anything that could get thrown at them by their neighbor.

I do not not know if I trust Colombia as pointed out earlier with their corruption and drug issues but I would lean for even better relations with Peru.

Most of the Drug narcotic producing countries in Latin America have a very different view towards narco-trafficing. Mainly that it's not their problem. It's a Gringo problem.

They will make the odd raid and siezure just to keep the new toys and aid flowing but it really does not matter to them how many kilos hit the US or Europe. Their view of drug use and addiction is that addicts do drugs and eventually die so the problem solves itself in time.

Couple that with the fact that Police Officers and Military personel are criminally under paid and a good percentage on the pad of someone, you'll begin to see how the war on drugs just doesn't work that well south of the border.

It not only doesn't work well, it just doesn't work at all. Raids are probably conducted against some druggie that hasn't been paying his bills to the government. Or the one that pays the least.
There are a few ways to go about this. Make the price of drug trafficking death and cut the demand level at home.
Easier said than done... but I think the first part is arrangeable.