Originally Posted by Kevin

I don't think there will be a last stand. These cowards over in Iraq will probably just keep recruiting people to blow themselves up.

People who blow themselves up to kill enemies are not cowards. It takes a lot of guts to do that.

Originally Posted by TBA_PAKI

People who blow themselves up to kill enemies are not cowards. It takes a lot of guts to do that.

Yes and no, they are indoctrinated that much, so that their lifes mean nothing to them compared to the thing they are blown up for, even if it is totally senceless

Originally Posted by Jäger

Yes and no, they are indoctrinated that much, so that their lifes mean nothing to them compared to the thing they are blown up for, even if it is totally senceless

When your enemy is equipped with sophisticated weaponry and you don't have that advantage then the only option left for you is to adopt to insane methods for fighting such an enemy.

Yes, I understand what you mean, but I don't think that they would effect anything. The Alliance never would withdraw, because of sucideatacks. And after all they have to withdraw anyway if their work is done there, so what sence makes it bombing them.

Originally Posted by Jäger

Yes, I understand what you mean, but I don't think that they would effect anything. The Alliance never would withdraw, because of sucideatacks. And after all they have to withdraw anyway if their work is done there, so what sence makes it bombing them.

The thing is that insurgents at-least keep on fighting against a powerful enemy. This is what matters the most and there are no signs of give-up, despite of massive arrests.

the with-drawal of US forces is actually a political matter. Of-course they will stay in IRAQ until ordered to pull out by US president but the point is that they have so far failed to stabilize IRAQ even though Bush made tall claims and the longer they stay in IRAQ, the more casualties they will suffer. Those who think that insurgency will die down there are living in fools paradise.

The effective insurgency is the actual cause of that and the challenge is very tough even after 2 years of fighting. I tell you that this war is of no benefit. Although Saddam's story is different but US has failed to properly control IRAQ so far.

Originally Posted by TBA_PAKI

The thing is that insurgents at-least keep on fighting against a powerful enemy. This is what matters the most and there are no signs of give-up, despite of massive arrests.

the with-drawal of US forces is actually a political matter. Of-course they will stay in IRAQ until ordered to pull out by US president but the point is that they have so far failed to stabilize IRAQ even though Bush made tall claims and the longer they stay in IRAQ, the more casualties they will suffer. Those who think that insurgency will die down there are living in fools paradise.

The effective insurgency is the actual cause of that and the challenge is very tough even after 2 years of fighting. I tell you that this war is of no benefit. Although Saddam's story is different but US has failed to properly control IRAQ so far.

You're right if you say, that the US still didn't stabilize Iraq and I doubt if they could do it in the future. You're sure right too if you say that they will suffer casualties as long as they stay in Iraq, I don't say anything against that, but if you look realistic an not fanatic you should realize, that bombing yourself wouldn't now or anytime in the future have any positive effect on the whole situation.

Originally Posted by Jäger

You're right if you say, that the US still didn't stabilize Iraq and I doubt if they could do it in the future. You're sure right too if you say that they will suffer casualties as long as they stay in Iraq, I don't say anything against that, but if you look realistic an not fanatic you should realize, that bombing yourself wouldn't now or anytime in the future have any positive effect on the whole situation.

I understand your stance and I believe that suicide bombing is the one of the worst fighting tactics but still very damaging.

Yes, it is damaging and demoralizing and causes casualtys on both sides plus civilians most of the time. I don't want to do it if it has no positiv effects for my comrades, family or friends, but I think maybe if you belive that Alah will reward you for doing that it could make sence to you.

The reason it makes no sense to kill yourself in the name of religion or some other cause is because it defies all of our western senses of warfare, religion, and regard for human life, especially one's own. This sort of thing however, has happened throughout history especially in the Middle East. The idea of the suicide attacker in that area of the world goes back more than a thousand years at least. During the 11th Century, a Persian named Hasan I Sabah who had a great deal of wealth founded a fundamentalist Islamic sect called The Assassins. Several centuries later, Marco Polo commented on these people in his book of travels. Their attacks were directed at the Seljuk Turks who Sabah felt were "enemies of the Truth Faith". Sounds just a bit familiar doesn't it? They would stalk and kill a target and rather than escape they would stand their ground and be killed themselves. Their targets were not only other Muslims but some of the leaders of the Crusades (England's King Edward I before he became king, for example).
I think the main difficulty we have in understanding these people is that they consider their suicides as a form of martyrdom. We in the West consider suicide as a cowardly act and martyrdom as something one suffers at the hands of others.
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I agree with that last point: You cannot make yourself a martyr. It's another fundamental difference between free societies and middle eastern ones: Humility and service to others as opposed to pride and self worship.

The martyr mentality of 'standing up' to the big, evil empire is right out of Mice and Men. The small guy with a chip on his shoulder and a big mouth is right just because he is small and weak, and if the big guy wins, it's because he had an unfair advantage. So stupid.....and worthless as the bravado of the homicide bombers.