Originally Posted by LeMask

Okay, maybe I'm missing something... give me one example... I dont see how the Taliban could use these information to kill anyone.

No, this is probably what your problem is.

I am not an expert in intelligence gathering, but I have received training in how seemingly innocent information can be combined to give a complete picture of a given situation.

Is quite ok to have principles and morals values. It’s also quite all right to criticize the military or a government if you do not agree with their decisions. It’s your democratic right. But frankly, you sound like one who sees conspiracies everywhere.

One thing you might not see in your reflection on the military is that it’s not a democratic organization but rather an authoritarian. You can’t just choose as it suits you. Its anarchy, but it’s perhaps what you want? Military discipline and effectiveness is built on the foundation of order obedience, but as Chief Bones also said. “if the order is illegal .. you have the right to disobey it .. matter of fact, you have an obligation to disobey it.”

If you want to change the world go into politics and then work within the democratic framework in order to reach your goal. Just remember that among other things it’s the soldier who has given you that opportunity. And one of the reasons that you can sleep safely at night is because somewhere in the world 24 hours a day there is a soldier on duty who have the attitude that as long as I’m on guard, you have nothing to fear.

Give the soldier the respect they deserve and then use your skills to change the political system if you don’t like the world we have today.

So in other words: Don’t shoot the piano player, he’s doing the best he can.

Stay safe; Micha.

Well, thanks Micha. A constructive answer for a change... But I dont think that I need to hear that.

It's not like I was trying to destroy the military by endangering the soldiers or something...

My view of the world is that the military are answering to the politics and that the politics are extremely corrupt. So, by extension, the military leadership is corrupt.

In fact, the only part of the system that isnt completely corrupt is maybe the individual soldier on the ground. So, we can disconnect the corruption from the military whisch is maybe the most powerful tool a government can have by giving the individual soldier the right to refuse orders if they are immoral.

This part is already in the military code, I'm not some genius who is asking for a real revolution... But tell, with all this BS that happens in wars... How many soldiers refused to fight? And in these days, we can hire lawyers to distort the truth and make them look like cowards, traitors, idiots etc...

The right to refuse an unlawful order isnt practiced. Why? I dont know... Many reasons... Because soldiers are young men with little education... I'm not calling them morons, but what is your understanding of the world when you are 19? 22? or even 25?
Because you love your country, and that there is people who will call you a traitor, a terrorist sympathiser... a communist... I dont know... So you dont dare.

The only solution is to have soldiers leaking information to the media when there is some bad stuff happening...

A woman soldier is abused/raped and she hesitate to speak about it, report it to the press... And then, the military justice will maybe start to work...

Soldiers arent receiving proper equipment? Tell it to the press...

Soldiers have to pay 100$ for their laundry because they didnt take the lowest bidder but company of a friend of the president... Tell it to the press...

And this how we solve problems... And this is the information the public wants to know. Is our troops safe, are they working on efficient missions and under intelligent leadership... is our **** secure? Are they following the rules of engagement?

We dont want the information that will help to kill them... Since when we asked for their communication protocols or the codes for artillery strikes?

And dude, I have 4 years education in information and communication... I know that. A smart enemy can pull some interesting conclusions from "innocent data".
But it's not the case here... And if the enemy is really smart, he can find more interesting data himself just by opening his eyes...

And even if it was the case, the good effects we would get out of it would be much greater than the damage it could cause...

Keeping the government under surveillance is extremely important for every democracy. If we dont do that, we will turn into third world countries in no time.

Originally Posted by LeMask

Well, thanks Micha. A constructive answer for a change... But I dont think that I need to hear that.

Don't you mean you don't WANT to hear it?
Woops there goes any hope of critical thinking.

Originally Posted by LeMask

It's not like I was trying to destroy the military by endangering the soldiers or something...

You are not destroying the military by endangering soldiers, you are destroying it by breaking the cohesion.

Originally Posted by LeMask

This part is already in the military code, I'm not some genius who is asking for a real revolution... But tell, with all this BS that happens in wars... How many soldiers refused to fight? And in these days, we can hire lawyers to distort the truth and make them look like cowards, traitors, idiots etc...

You seem to have a very romantic notion of war and politics, you have to look at the realities rather than go into a "perfect world" scenario. In the perfect world there would no rape, no murder, no wars, no crime we would all happily live in peace and prosperity, etc etc etc.
That is not how things work.

This part is already in the military code, I'm not some genius who is asking for a real revolution... But tell, with all this BS that happens in wars... How many soldiers refused to fight? And in these days, we can hire lawyers to distort the truth and make them look like cowards, traitors, idiots etc...

Originally Posted by LeMask

And this how we solve problems... And this is the information the public wants to know. Is our troops safe, are they working on efficient missions and under intelligent leadership... is our **** secure? Are they following the rules of engagement?

You solve problems by undermining the institution of the military, that is what you are saying?
There were plenty of people cheered for action in Afghanistan following 9/11, things didn't work out as planned.. So they jumped ship. Politics is very fashionable, you see...
If it were up to those same people right now, they'd say pack up everyone in Afghanistan and go back home pretending nothing happened and pretending all is well.
This isn't a game that you can quit when you get bored [or public opinion wanes], the military is there to do a job under unimaginable circumstances. And it is doing it, yes bad things happen. Things are looked at and things are being sorted, change does not come at the drop of a hat.

Originally Posted by LeMask

And if the enemy is really smart, he can find more interesting data himself just by opening his eyes...

Exactly, what is happening here is they don't have to fire a single shot to break you. What could possibly be better?

Originally Posted by LeMask

And even if it was the case, the good effects we would get out of it would be much greater than the damage it could cause...

What good has come from this?
We have known about these kinds of things before, the only "good" to come from this is MORE pressure on the military, breaking unit cohesion, giving other nations higher ground [India is having a ball now that they have something to poke at the ISI] on which to stand on, destroying morale, boosting enemy spirits and finally the act treason itself. Many good effects indeed.

All of this will give someone an upper hand in their rhetoric and ultimately will change nothing for the better, just brings in more politics and breaks down the system a little more each day.

To be honest, there is nothing really shocking in these leaks that we didn't already suspect

1. Coalition forces have killed hundreds of civilians in unreported incidents,
2. Taliban attacks have soared
3. Nato commanders fear neighbouring Pakistan and Iran are fuelling the insurgency.
4. How a secret "black" unit of special forces hunts down Taliban leaders for "kill or capture" without trial.
5. How the US covered up evidence that the Taliban have acquired deadly surface-to-air missiles.
6. How the coalition is increasingly using deadly Reaper drones to hunt and kill Taliban targets by remote control from a base in Nevada.
7. How the Taliban have caused growing carnage with a massive escalation of their roadside bombing campaign, which has killed more than 2,000 civilians to date.

It might be the specific cases that arouse most controversy, but after the exploits in Iraq these are not as shocking as they would otherwise have been. Perhaps they should be.

1. Bloody errors at civilians' expense, as recorded in the logs, include the day French troops strafed a bus full of children in 2008, wounding eight.
2. A US patrol similarly machine-gunned a bus, wounding or killing 15 of its passengers, and
3. in 2007 Polish troops mortared a village, killing a wedding party including a pregnant woman, in an apparent revenge attack.
4. Questionable shootings of civilians by UK troops also figure. The US compilers detail an unusual cluster of four British shootings in Kabul in the space of barely a month, in October/November 2007, culminating in the death of the son of an Afghan general

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...military-leaks

Originally Posted by LeMask

Okay, maybe I'm missing something... give me one example... I dont see how the Taliban could use these information to kill anyone. Name this "sort" of information so we can know what we are talking about... Even a gross description might give us a little insight about what you are talking about.

If you don´t get that you are just plain stupid.
I don´t care what his intent was, he endangered lives.

Leaking combatreports let the enemy know what we did to them, how, where and why.

Furthermore the leaks have endangered Afghan sources helping the coalition.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225897924552

And you wanted to give this dumbass a medal?

I am no lawyer but I believe these are the charges you could get the deathpenalty for.

94 - Mutiny or sedition
99 - Misbehavior before the enemy
100 - Subordinate compelling surrender
101 - Improper use of countersign
102 - Forcing a safeguard
104 - Aiding the enemy
106 - Espionage
110 - Improper hazarding of vessel
118 - Murder
120 - Rape and carnal knowledge

The following only carrying a death sentence if committed during times of war:
85 - Desertion
90 - Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer
92 - Failure to obey order or regulation
113 - Misbehavior of a sentinel or lookout

Turns out that the UCMJ is rather serious business.


This guy is going to get lit up.. I hope he rots in jail, not as a figure of speech but I hope he actually rots.

KJ.

Originally Posted by LeMask

We NEED these informations to function as democracies.

Correct. This is why we have congressional oversight. This ebsures that the civilian authorities are informed of what is going on WITHOUT release to the general public

Originally Posted by LeMask

If our soldiers are doing warcrimes, we HAVE to know to stop them.
If our officials are doing some nasty things in some other countries in our names, we have to know that...

See the above comment. Too many reporters report information WITHOUT consideration of the consequences. They endanger soldiers and operations, causing needless deaths and then hide behind freedom of speech. Pure BS IMHO.
See Jack Nicholsons speech from "A Few Good Men"

Rant ends..

Stop being so agressive everytime you meet someone who have a different opinion.

Not that I dont want to hear what he got to say, but just that I was well aware of what he said.

I understand the importance of discipline in the military. I understand how important the unit cohesion is. I'm not discussing these points.

But you have to agree that the unit's cohesion can fuel some wrong things. Unit cohesion can push people to cover up mistakes... And at some level, these mistakes will cost more to the military than anything else...

You could lose battles if you dont have unit cohesion? Sure. But you can lose wars if you push it too far.

And I'm not really the romantic who wants a perfect world... I mean why not, but I know it would be impossible to reach. The problem is that when you abandon your ideals... You start to negociate on everything. Today you make business with a war criminal, and the next day you send an innocent man to jail, and then you move to the next step...
Yes sir, I believe in an ideal. I know that we cant reach it, but we have nothing better to do. I dont ask for a perfect world, but I ask people to try to reach it.

And I know the effects of the politics on the military... I know the military, they get the job done. But it's the politics who start the BS wars and BS objectives...

And I dont agree on that. We must apply a huge pressure on the military. It's serious business mate. We dont do that because we want them to lose. The time when you asked the people to support blindly the troops in time of war is finished.

This era is behind us. We are today living in democracies. People are supposed to be enlightened and responsible.
Wars these days are long wars. Unlimited wars if we look carefully. War against terrorism wont end in our life time. So asking the people to trust their government and to support blindly their military... It's like killing democracy.

We cant afford to abandon our rights to know and to change course in these modern wars.

Things will balance themselves, it's the only way...

Edit:
To HokieMSG, I understand your point, but it doesnt make things right... If you do that, you take the knowledge from the people to give it to someone else. May it be the congress, Parliament, president etc... This isolation of the public from the government's affair is not democratic.

Corruption kills more soldiers and innocent people than any quest for truth or information leakage.
If we did our jobs correctly as citizens, as democracies... The wars we would be in would be clean legal wars. With public support... And with much better results...

I dont want to start the "what if" contest here... I'm working on ethics.

The public have to know. This is not negotiable. This is a democracy. The public is the ruler and the ruler have to know to decide.
If we start to follow blindly, we would kill democracy and serve our countries to corrupt people and the terrorists would have successfully destroyed our very civilization at its roots.

Rattler,
Among the released information were mission templates and other information. It doesn't matter that names were excluded, though for this, I do give Wikileaks some credit. Personally, I don't mind if they leak things regarding serious wrongdoings but when the party has done nothing wrong, that is a different issue.
And Micha is correct, even a series of unclassified information can reveal a lot of information at depths that could compromise our effectiveness. Although this information is available, I don't believe in making it easy to access. The sort of time and effort and uncertainty is involved with the party trying to obtain and analyze the information itself is a form of safety.
Some of you may have heard of this guy who goes by the screen name of "planeman" who has written huge reports about the defensive capabilities of various places in the world. He uses declassified information for his research and the depth and detail of his work is highly commendable. However, because he discusses places I have been, I can tell you that his reports are not as accurate as he thinks it is. Yet, the vast majority of what I know is actually not really a secret (as far as I know) but it's just very hard to access.
It's like ripping up manuals when you know copies of it exist elsewhere outside your control. By making it rare, you have made life a bit more difficult for the enemy.
I don't think some of you get it but INFORMATION is probably the most effective weapon on the battlefield. Your trillion dollar army is useless if it lacks the information on whatever it is supposed to do and it is useless if the ten thousand dollar enemy knows exactly what you are going to do. Information is life and death.
I think the military has become transparent enough.
If only banks, military contractors and secret societies were held to the same standard.

Or we'll just send some ships to Pakistan, load 'em up with Taliban fighters, give them scoped rifles and let 'em loose on American soil. Oh yeah, we'll also give them information. A lot of information. After all, it can't hurt right? It's just information after all
Send some to Iceland for good measure as well.

Can of a Man, the public isnt interested in this kind of informations...

If you gave me today a "mission template" I wouldnt know what to do with it... My question would be "so what?"

It's like if I gave you my taxes reports or my bill from the grocery store... You dont need that. You dont want that. Unless you are selling groceries...

Give the people the data they want. Stop the lies... If the Taliban have missiles capable of downing aircrafts, then tell it to the people. Do you think that the Taliban dont know that they have missiles?
If things arent going well, dont hide it and abandon the people on the field to fight an inefficient war. Tell it to the people, and it might change the war effort and maybe the results...
etc...

We dont want to know what's going on the field accurately... We need the big image.

Originally Posted by LeMask

Can of a Man, the public isnt interested in this kind of informations...

If you gave me today a "mission template" I wouldnt know what to do with it... My question would be "so what?"

It's like if I gave you my taxes reports or my bill from the grocery store... You dont need that. You dont want that. Unless you are selling groceries...

Give the people the data they want.

We dont want to know what's going on the field accurately... We need the big image.

You just said you wanted this guy to get a medal for endangering lives, now wich is it?

The fact is that you want data supporting YOUR current POV.
Big picture?
What is the big picture?
That the Taleban has SAM,s? We knew that and have been acting accordingly for awhile now.
Now that they know that we know they will change their tactics in employing these weapons.

See again, endangering lives.

"Alittle knowledge is a dangerous thing."

//KJ.