Ummm, okay, whatever you say... No problem by me.

So why should we need soldiers then? If they are just tools to obey orders, whatever outraging and ridiculous... Then soldiers are a nuisance we have to stop.

Would you volunteer to do Mr Bannings jailtime?
We all need to make sacrifices in the name of transperancy right?

He shouldnt be doing any jail time. All he did is uncover things we are supposed to know. And I dont give a damn if they are classified or not.

Some people in the government have to be under surveillance. In the military too. We have to know what they are doing. And wars arent an exception, if wars were an exception, it would be the exception to tell us more about what they are doing, because human lives and huge ammounts of resources would be at stake.

I would share the medals he deserves for this intrepid action. But it wouldnt be fair, as I did nothing.

The problem with you guys, is that you arent open minded enough. We tell you that a soldier should have the right to leave the battlefield if he thinks it's necessary... And you think that we are asking you to forget about military discipline...

There is a difference between a soldier telling his commanding officer "go to hell, I'm not protecting empty convoys to make a mercenary group richer." and the soldier saying "No, I wont join the mission I wont to sleep and eat pancakes and bring a prostitute to the base."

All over the world we have a lot of agents who are doing horrible things because it's the orders and that they cant disobey.

From the Sheriff who have to kick out families from their homes because they lost their jobs to the soldier who have to go in a BS war because some dumb and corrupt president gave the order.

We can offset all of this by asking the soldiers to follow their sense of duty rather than the fear of prosecution.

And what about the conscience objectors? Some joined the military to protect their country. And when they see that in fact their country is pillaging another weaker one... They want to go home. And they are labeled deserters, traitors etc...

A man have to be free. All actions have to come from free will. And yes, you have to ask for their free will at every order. Not just once the day they are recruited.

It will fix so many problems and it will cause problems to all the criminals in suits and uniforms who lie to young people to send them to war and make money on their backs...

No, you are a nuisance that needs to be stopped
Listen, cut the whole "understanding" crap. You don't like us and never will. Which is okay because I don't like you and probably never will.

If Manning actually leaked information regarding complete and utter wrongdoing on the part of the military's brass, especially against the soldiers they send to the field, then we have a different story. But he has released information regarding lawful orders and sanctioned action. Say what you will about Iraq, but this is also about Afghanistan. THIS is ultimately why the morality of this one man's action is without a question of a doubt in the wrong.

Originally Posted by LeMask

Ummm, okay, whatever you say... No problem by me.

So why should we need soldiers then? If they are just tools to obey orders, whatever outraging and ridiculous... Then soldiers are a nuisance we have to stop.


He shouldnt be doing any jail time. All he did is uncover things we are supposed to know. And I dont give a damn if they are classified or not.

Some people in the government have to be under surveillance. In the military too. We have to know what they are doing. And wars arent an exception, if wars were an exception, it would be the exception to tell us more about what they are doing, because human lives and huge ammounts of resources would be at stake.

I would share the medals he deserves for this intrepid action. But it wouldnt be fair, as I did nothing.

The problem with you guys, is that you arent open minded enough. We tell you that a soldier should have the right to leave the battlefield if he thinks it's necessary... And you think that we are asking you to forget about military discipline...

There is a difference between a soldier telling his commanding officer "go to hell, I'm not protecting empty convoys to make a mercenary group richer." and the soldier saying "No, I wont join the mission I wont to sleep and eat pancakes and bring a prostitute to the base."

All over the world we have a lot of agents who are doing horrible things because it's the orders and that they cant disobey.

From the Sheriff who have to kick out families from their homes because they lost their jobs to the soldier who have to go in a BS war because some dumb and corrupt president gave the order.

We can offset all of this by asking the soldiers to follow their sense of duty rather than the fear of prosecution.

And what about the conscience objectors? Some joined the military to protect their country. And when they see that in fact their country is pillaging another weaker one... They want to go home. And they are labeled deserters, traitors etc...

A man have to be free. All actions have to come from free will. And yes, you have to ask for their free will at every order. Not just once the day they are recruited.

It will fix so many problems and it will cause problems to all the criminals in suits and uniforms who lie to young people to send them to war and make money on their backs...

Does it ever rain in utopia?

Originally Posted by KJ

Does it ever rain in utopia?

Too bad it's an internet forum.
If this were high school we'd water board him.

It's childish... How can you resume the solution to "I dont like you."

An individual is a lot of things... You can hate some things and like others. I dont like the military as a system. I dont like the individual soldier when he is enforcing some parts of the system I dont like... Because even some parts of the system are necessary...

Well, I just dont want to talk like that... I'm not talking about feelings here.

We are speaking about an ideal we are trying to reach and the coherence of the system.

In the military, there is some "bad apples" that are doing a very bad job. Waste of money and resources, hiding war crimes etc etc...

And these are the first people to bitch and moan when we ask for transparency.

There is indeed some things we have to keep secret. We cant give the enemy our positions so they can drop mortar rounds on us... Even the most retarded people can understand that.

But we have to know about how things are on the battlefield.

If you were sent to the battlefield and that our CO gave you a BS mission... Wouldnt you be glad to see a journalist talking about it? Or do you want to take a bullet trying to protect a drum of oil or a field of opium in Afghanistan?

Transparency is important to keep the whole organisation in check. When the Israelis had problems in the war in Lebanon, their media spoke about it after the war and the people who were responsible had to answer for their mistakes...

And in the next war, the chances are that these mistakes wont happen again...

If the war in Afghanistan isnt going well, we have to know it... So we can change the strategy and the people giving orders...

Give this guy a freaking medal.

Originally Posted by LeMask

Ummm, okay, whatever you say... No problem by me.

So why should we need soldiers then? If they are just tools to obey orders, whatever outraging and ridiculous... Then soldiers are a nuisance we have to stop.


He shouldnt be doing any jail time. All he did is uncover things we are supposed to know. And I dont give a damn if they are classified or not.

Some people in the government have to be under surveillance. In the military too. We have to know what they are doing. And wars arent an exception, if wars were an exception, it would be the exception to tell us more about what they are doing, because human lives and huge ammounts of resources would be at stake.

I would share the medals he deserves for this intrepid action. But it wouldnt be fair, as I did nothing.

The problem with you guys, is that you arent open minded enough. We tell you that a soldier should have the right to leave the battlefield if he thinks it's necessary... And you think that we are asking you to forget about military discipline...

There is a difference between a soldier telling his commanding officer "go to hell, I'm not protecting empty convoys to make a mercenary group richer." and the soldier saying "No, I wont join the mission I wont to sleep and eat pancakes and bring a prostitute to the base."

All over the world we have a lot of agents who are doing horrible things because it's the orders and that they cant disobey.

From the Sheriff who have to kick out families from their homes because they lost their jobs to the soldier who have to go in a BS war because some dumb and corrupt president gave the order.

We can offset all of this by asking the soldiers to follow their sense of duty rather than the fear of prosecution.

And what about the conscience objectors? Some joined the military to protect their country. And when they see that in fact their country is pillaging another weaker one... They want to go home. And they are labeled deserters, traitors etc...

A man have to be free. All actions have to come from free will. And yes, you have to ask for their free will at every order. Not just once the day they are recruited.

It will fix so many problems and it will cause problems to all the criminals in suits and uniforms who lie to young people to send them to war and make money on their backs...

So, is the yellow brick road still there?

This is silly, you think it's an utopia?

What kind of person you have to be to think that?

It's like asking for a glass of water in a hot day... Or enjoying a beer once at home after a long day at work...

It's not an utopia, it's just how things are supposed to be.

Welcome to the world.. Somedays it rains.
I am seriously concerned for you.
It´s going to be a shock that day when you have to leave your little transparent democracy bubble and get a glimse of the real world.

There is a reason EVERYONE on this here board who ever served in uniform tells you that following orders is vital.(Unless an unlawful one)

WHY are you still discussing this?
Do you not trust the accumalated experience of the militarymembers of this board?
WHY are you on a military board if you don´t want to learn about militarymatters?
You stated you had an understanding that we couldn´t give out coordinates to the enemy because we could get mortared, great.
Now how about we unveil our incursion methods..We might get taken out during the incursions..
And our exfiltration methods, we could get taken out then..

This is what in effect this POS you want to give a medal have done.
Fact is had I been prosecuting he´d get the deathpenalty for endangering his own troops.


I find you an interesting case study of what is going on in the civilian world, that is about as much use as you are.


KJ.

Ummm, that wouldnt be coherent.

Is it an authority argument? I dont say that the people on this board are idiots, I dont refuse their experience... But I want to discuss their conclusions and maybe their understanding of the problem/question.

And of course, their extensive experience can be a weakness in a debate. A bit like the military leadership in WWII, they wanted to do things as they did before... And got squashed by German Blitzkrieg...

This is what happens when you refuse to think outside the box.

And I care about ethics... And forcing people to join a battle is criminal.

You have to count on their will to serve and follow orders.

Actually he's not a good representation of the civilian world.
I think his sympathies lie with the enemy.
He's just BSing and tap dancing around to get information.