Largest leak in US military history tells the truth on the Afghanistan war

perseus

Active member
The Guardian, the New York Times and Der Spiegel have published a huge cache of secret military files from the whistleblowing website Wikileaks, detailing the war in Afghanistan.

Each of the news organisations has a slightly different take on the files.
For the Guardian the files reveal the futility of the conflict and the current strategy.

However you cut it, this is not an Afghanistan that either the US or Britain is about to hand over gift-wrapped with pink ribbons to a sovereign national government in Kabul. Quite the contrary. After nine years of warfare, the chaos threatens to overwhelm. A war fought ostensibly for the hearts and minds of Afghans cannot be won like this.

Der Spiegel says:

"Never before has it been possible to compare the reality on the battlefield in such a detailed manner with what the US Army propaganda machinery is propagating."

It adds that they show "The German army was clueless and naïve when it stumbled into the conflict."

The New York Times focuses on what the documents reveal about the role of Pakistan's security service in directing the Afghan insurgency.

"The documents suggest that Pakistan, an ostensible ally of the United States, allows representatives of its spy service to meet directly with the Taliban in secret strategy sessions to organize networks of militant groups that fight against American soldiers in Afghanistan, and even hatch plots to assassinate Afghan leaders," its top stoy on the leaks says.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/jul/26/afghanistan-war-logs-wikileaks
 
If Iceland continues to harbor these organizations and individuals, they should be excluded from any protection pact or agreement on our side.
 
Yes probably the Pentagon papers were more shocking since we are less naive nowadays and really suspected most of the above anyway!

I understand the same group that was behind the Piratebay site organises Wikileaks and it is diversified across various countries just like the Internet itself to avoid prosecution.

Despite this, I understand they were relatively responsible, censoring names from the files to for example to avoid compromising individuals.
 
So, any comments regarding the revelations?

I for one, am a bit surprised the US is tolerating these reports that the Pak ISI are helping AQ. I'd expected a more robust... "response" against them.


GMan
 
For me the scariest thing is that that such a large quantity of document s were leaked.

To me it reflects a lack of confidence in strategy, tactics and philosophy, by the troops on the ground, as well as general observers.

I think, from what I've seen so far, that Wikileaks has done the right thing, we need an independent press to keep the public informed, that doesn't happen. We need to be able to hold our govt's accountable for their decisions - that sort of happens. Whatever else, this shows that our young men and women are still willing to pu their lives on the line but are prepared to think and act for themselves. I think that this is a positive outcome.
 
Well, it appears that the vast majority of the leaks came from one person... some Private Bradley Manning.
The good news is that none of this information really seems to be anything new.
Also, this would be a great time for the US military to get it's SH1T together and make sure that no one below E-6 gets to see anything worth half a damn, as well as improve computer security. Technology is important but what's more important is how it's run by people. You can have the most sophisticated stuff but if your guy sets the password to "0000" and has it written on a post-it stuck under the monitor, it's really no good.
Also, honest to God there's got to be better ways to deal with rejects. This "treat them fairly" BS is going too far. If a commander sees a guy unable and unwilling to do his job, he should be able to give recommendations to have the guy dishonorably discharged in a hurry. Maybe an Officer's recommendation with signatures from two or three NCOs ranking E-5 and above should do the trick.
 
@Partisan

Respectfully, frankly I'm not too sure having soldiers think independently is a good thing for any army. They're supposed to follow orders, not think about them.


@ACoM
So, if this was known years ago, is there any truth to the "reports" on ISI involvement?
 
About the debate of the soldiers thinking independantly... I'm for total freedom. For me, an army is citizens trained to a professionnal standard to defend their country/people/laws/human rights.

There is no reason to force soldiers to do anything, unless you want to go against the law/ethics/morals...

Of course, the soldiers are part of larger corps, if you allow the discipline to disappear, then it will be just a crowd of armed men.
But we are not talking about that. We are talking about the right to refuse a mission, or an order, or to follow an officer they dont trust etc etc...

They are soldiers, not machines... And they know the tactical situation on the ground better than high command. Trust them when they say something, and of course, if something bad happens, they are free and it means that they are responsible, no more "I was just following orders".

And on the topic:
I'm for democracy, the people have to know everything that is happening on the ground, no secrets at all on these points...
The tax payer have to know exactly where his money is going. And I would give him the right to take his money back if he doesnt like the management.

We have to abandon this feodal system where there is nobles ruling, knights protecting their master and obbeying his every order, and the serfs who have to shut the hell up and pay the taxes and beg for protection from the devil...

I'm fed up of this BS. We want democracy now. And if democracy makes us weak and stupid... So let us die and disppear from this world as honest people at least.
 
Maybe you are right.
We should publish all our secrets to everyone but let it be known to the public that the government and the military no longer has the capacity to keep them safe and that friendly casualties in any war will be horrendous.
In the event of a war that is necessary, lots of our own people will die and the responsibility will lie on those crying about transparency.
Actually that would be amusing.
The same f*ckers crying about transparency getting blown up left and right.
Fun.
 
Well, it appears that the vast majority of the leaks came from one person... some Private Bradley Manning.
The good news is that none of this information really seems to be anything new.

That is correct. This Private Manning has not taken his clearance seriously enough. There will be consequences for him.

Also, this would be a great time for the US military to get it's SH1T together and make sure that no one below E-6 gets to see anything worth half a damn, as well as improve computer security. Technology is important but what's more important is how it's run by people. You can have the most sophisticated stuff but if your guy sets the password to "0000" and has it written on a post-it stuck under the monitor, it's really no good.

EVERYONE that deploys OCONUS is required by regulation to have a SECRET clearance. If the soldier had access to the secret info when he logged on there is a full page warning about compromising information which you have to acknowledge before you are allowed access.
There is a lot of other training required prior to deployment as well. Bottom line is the soldier willfully disregarded the warnings and leaked the info. He will have to pay the price now.

Also, honest to God there's got to be better ways to deal with rejects. This "treat them fairly" BS is going too far. If a commander sees a guy unable and unwilling to do his job, he should be able to give recommendations to have the guy dishonorably discharged in a hurry. Maybe an Officer's recommendation with signatures from two or three NCOs ranking E-5 and above should do the trick.

Agree. The problem is that alot of NCO's do "verbal" counseling so that they don;t have to do paperwork. When the soldier continues to perform badly, there is no record of the bad behavior. Remember that in the Army, If it aint written down, it never happened. So the commanders hands are tied because te regulations REQUIRE a pattern of misconduct or failure to follow established SOP's.

Gman88 said:
Respectfully, frankly I'm not too sure having soldiers think independently is a good thing for any army. They're supposed to follow orders, not think about them.

It is expected that soldiers will follow their orders. However, we are also trained to consider the consequences of the orders we are given. And if given an illegal or unlawful order we are obligated to not follow it.
 
As for intel analyst Manning one source I read listing the charges on him puts him away for 52 years should he get convicted on all counts.

linky: http://www.bradleymanning.org/



I for one would rather see him attempt one or two of the missiontemplates he himself compromized..
Leaking classified information is treason and/or espionage depending on the source he initially leaked it to.
This ****** shouldn´t see daylight again, ever.

//KJ.
 
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Embedded in bold

That is correct. This Private Manning has not taken his clearance seriously enough. There will be consequences for him.
Seems from most accounts that he was a troubled guy. He probably didn't care about the consequences at the time. Obviously he had not taken his clearance seriously enough but the fact that someone like him could have such a clearance seems to be the root of the problem.


EVERYONE that deploys OCONUS is required by regulation to have a SECRET clearance. If the soldier had access to the secret info when he logged on there is a full page warning about compromising information which you have to acknowledge before you are allowed access.
There is a lot of other training required prior to deployment as well. Bottom line is the soldier willfully disregarded the warnings and leaked the info. He will have to pay the price now.
The full page of warning is basically useless against anyone with intent to use it badly. The fact that some troubled E-4 (busted down to E-3) was able to even get close to that sort of information seems like gross negligence in part of his superiors.


Agree. The problem is that alot of NCO's do "verbal" counseling so that they don;t have to do paperwork. When the soldier continues to perform badly, there is no record of the bad behavior. Remember that in the Army, If it aint written down, it never happened. So the commanders hands are tied because te regulations REQUIRE a pattern of misconduct or failure to follow established SOP's.
If these NCOs are serious about getting these problems solved, they will have to do the paperwork. It should be simplified. They put in a verbal request to their Officer who fills out a form and grabs a few signatures. That should be all that is required.
 
Part of the problem is that many times the Pentagon is less than forthcoming, even when it doesn't have to be. I understand the need for operational security but their is a line between OPSEC and people trying to cover their ass.

The killing of the Reuters reporters, the Mahmidyah killings, My Lai Massacre, the Pat Tillman affair, the explosion on the USS Iowa, these are examples of the Pentagon being less than forthcoming. And the only reason we ever found out about it where because of people like Manning who talked. I am not saying what Manning did was right (i'm on the fence on the issue) but these scandals are partly because the Pentagon tries to keep too many secrets or finds scapegoats for screw-ups rather than just accepting the blame.

"As the saying goes: Its not the Crime its the Cover up".
 
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eh, Can of a Man, Who asked about "all your secrets"?
We dont need to know everything... Like all the military secrets (units positions, forces, names of the soldiers etc)

But there is some areas we have to watch. Like government spending, the results of the actions taken by the government in our names etc etc...

We NEED these informations to function as democracies.

The human being can be corrupt. We cant trust our officials nor our soldiers in the field. We have to know exactly what they are doing.

If our soldiers are doing warcrimes, we HAVE to know to stop them.
If our officials are doing some nasty things in some other countries in our names, we have to know that...

Of we could wake up with angry arabs in our airplanes trying to wreak havoc in our backyards... It happened before. This is what happens when we allow our governments to shake hands with Saudi Kings and sell weapons to Saddam Hussein...

And if we close our eyers when some corrupt soldiers kill civilians, we might see the families of the victims take arms against the good soldiers who are doing their job seriously...

Transprancy is vital for a real democracy. I know that some dont get it yet. That they got used to the old ways...
But we are trying to reach something even better than that.
 
Independent thinking soldier?????

Independent thinking soldier????? This is bunch of b******t as far as I am concerned.

An independent thinking soldier is an oxymoron in more than one way. Without instant obedience to orders, you have nothing more than a rabble or a mob instead of an army.

The Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) allows a very small amount of wiggle room as far as following orders ...basically, ANY order which is legal, must be followed immediately. Any deviation, is subject to military discipline via Article 15 or courts martial. According to the UCMJ, if the order is illegal .. you have the right to disobey it .. matter of fact, you have an obligation to disobey it. [Historically, we have held tribunals for soldiers that committed atrocities and then used the "I was following orders" defense ... that were found guilty.]

Personally, when one of my sailors disobeyed me (or disobeyed someone senior to them), they immediately drew extra duty assigned by me (or they faced an Article 15 from our Commanding Officer).

It is called 'discipline' for a reason. Since the dawn of time, discipline has been the hallmark of an efficient fighting force. Those armies without it, ended up losing not only the battle, but the war.

BTW - I personally believe that those guilty of disclosing classified documentation .. should be tried, found guilty and end up spending an extended period making big rocks into little pebbles.
 
We NEED these informations to function as democracies.



Transprancy is vital for a real democracy. I know that some dont get it yet. That they got used to the old ways...
But we are trying to reach something even better than that.

There is no need for civilian world to know about combatoperations in an ongoing war.
These things are classified for a reason.

Soo, in the name of transperancy.
Would you volunteer to do Mr Bannings jailtime?
We all need to make sacrifices in the name of transperancy right?
How old would you be in 52 years, and would you still believe it was worth it.
You made a few headlines and you endangered some of your own troops but all in all you got your fifteen minutes of infamy.

//KJ.
 
Independent thinking soldier????? This is bunch of b******t as far as I am concerned.

An independent thinking soldier is an oxymoron in more than one way. Without instant obedience to orders, you have nothing more than a rabble or a mob instead of an army.

The Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) allows a very small amount of wiggle room as far as following orders ...basically, ANY order which is legal, must be followed immediately. Any deviation, is subject to military discipline via Article 15 or courts martial. According to the UCMJ, if the order is illegal .. you have the right to disobey it .. matter of fact, you have an obligation to disobey it. [Historically, we have held tribunals for soldiers that committed atrocities and then used the "I was following orders" defense ... that were found guilty.]

Personally, when one of my sailors disobeyed me (or disobeyed someone senior to them), they immediately drew extra duty assigned by me (or they faced an Article 15 from our Commanding Officer).

It is called 'discipline' for a reason. Since the dawn of time, discipline has been the hallmark of an efficient fighting force. Those armies without it, ended up losing not only the battle, but the war.

BTW - I personally believe that those guilty of disclosing classified documentation .. should be tried, found guilty and end up spending an extended period making big rocks into little pebbles.


Oorah.
The only thinking should be about how to carry out the orders successfully.
 
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