I think they shauld both keep to there "country" and stop killing each other i mean sure the palestinians kill civilians but what does the isreali army do? they ONLY kill civilians...

Cheers,

Peace

Originally Posted by Jtf2

they ONLY kill civilians...

When you pick up a rifle/RPG/bomb you are no longer a "civilian."

True but that's a minority of the people that are actual killed....

Once again, back up your statements. I could say "Canada kills millions of innocent Greenlanders every year" till I was blue in the face, but that doesn't make it true. Do some research to support yourself if you are going to make extravagent claims.

Originally Posted by Redneck

The reason Israel exists is because it is the Hebrews' homeland and has been for thousands of years. Sure there were political reasons behind its reformation following WWII, but I don't recall the U.S. or Great Britain deporting any Jews to the new country, something we probably would have done had our goal been removing any Jewish presence from our countries. The Jews in the States are Americans, and the Jews in

Oh, please, stop it. So you're telling me that the Asia Minor coast should be returned to Greece because that is where Greek civilization began, or that the Pontus be returned to its respective inhabitants, being the Greeks and the Armenians? Should Quebec be returned to France, should Louisiana for that matter be returned to its rightful French owners, given the terrible oppression of the Cajun (Acadian) population of Louisiana by the WASP American RACIST government? Should all Caucasians return to the Caucasus? You are talking out of your ass, and when the word "homeland" comes into discussion, you are totally ignoring the historic and political realities of the past 2000 years. In fact, the Palestinian territory of the Ottoman empire in 1914 was comprised of 620 000 Palestinian Arabs as compared to 80 000 Jews. From then on, the amount of Jews only rised, thanks to the Ottoman empire's non-hostility towards Jewish colonization of Palestine (brought about by European pressures on the Ottoman government but also the greed of Turks as I'll mention later), but mainly the fierce determination of Zionist racists to turn a non-Jewish land into a new state that would totally ignore all other ethnicities. One of the main four points of Zionism was the "inexistence of any other people who would hold rights" (this is fact). Once in Palestine, the Jewish colonizers bought great lands from the Turks and expulsed poor Arab peasants from the land. Already the economic division between Jews and Arabs grows, which could explain the great disparity of today (after all, Jewish colonizers of Palestine brought great wealth from Europe, which is why the Turks preferred them over the Arabs). But back to the main point, which is that Palestine was never Jewish, at least not in contemporary, historically-recorded, non-biblical times, and calling Palestine "Hebrew homeland" is a perfect case of looking at only one side of the story and ignoring the historic Arab presence in Palestine.

I concur if that comment would be true the US would go back to france, england mexico,russia...etc

Cheers

Jtf2

I agree but redneck does make a good point....

Originally Posted by Christos

Oh, please, stop it. So you're telling me that the Asia Minor coast should be returned to Greece because that is where Greek civilization began, or that the Pontus be returned to its respective inhabitants, being the Greeks and the Armenians? Should Quebec be returned to France, should Louisiana for that matter be returned to its rightful French owners, given the terrible oppression of the Cajun (Acadian) population of Louisiana by the WASP American RACIST government? Should all Caucasians return to the Caucasus? You are talking out of your ass, and when the word "homeland" comes into discussion, you are totally ignoring the historic and political realities of the past 2000 years. In fact, the Palestinian territory of the Ottoman empire in 1914 was comprised of 620 000 Palestinian Arabs as compared to 80 000 Jews. From then on, the amount of Jews only rised, thanks to the Ottoman empire's non-hostility towards Jewish colonization of Palestine (brought about by European pressures on the Ottoman government but also the greed of Turks as I'll mention later), but mainly the fierce determination of Zionist racists to turn a non-Jewish land into a new state that would totally ignore all other ethnicities. One of the main four points of Zionism was the "inexistence of any other people who would hold rights" (this is fact). Once in Palestine, the Jewish colonizers bought great lands from the Turks and expulsed poor Arab peasants from the land. Already the economic division between Jews and Arabs grows, which could explain the great disparity of today (after all, Jewish colonizers of Palestine brought great wealth from Europe, which is why the Turks preferred them over the Arabs). But back to the main point, which is that Palestine was never Jewish, at least not in contemporary, historically-recorded, non-biblical times, and calling Palestine "Hebrew homeland" is a perfect case of looking at only one side of the story and ignoring the historic Arab presence in Palestine.

Curb your tone and your language.

I said that Israel as we know it today is WHERE it is today (location-wise) because that is where it originally was. There were of course Palestinians in the area when it was redesignated Israel following the war, but was there a nation of Palestinians there? No, there was not, it was a collection of nomadic peoples, and while they may have had a historic claim to the land, the Hebrews had a historic claim to the COUNTRY. As I was not present at the making of any of the decisions that led to the formation of the new Israel, I cannot make a statement of reality about what did or did not specifically go into the making of those decisions (nor can you, chief). However, the stated reasons, as I have heard them and as I believe could justifiably go into those decisions, are as I laid out. Of course those are not all the factors involved, but they are the pertenant ones to my argument.

You are talking out of your ass

Ok. We all have our opinions, but that is just not nice.

OK, Christos, you hyave no real idea what your talking about. While it is true that about 2000 years ago jews were kiked out of Israel, it is also true that in the last 2000 years there was not a minute that some jews lived here. The Palestinian nation is not older then 70 years at the most. The entire arab presence in Israel is only 1500 years old. But these arabs were not "palestinians" they were arabs. Zionisem is not racisem. The only main idea of Zionisem is the return of the Jewish people to the land of their fathers. The Jews never said anything about taking rights away from the local arabs, simply they wanted, by jewish immigration, to make the jews a majority in what was ours to begin with. You think Israel is racist? Well, some of the Israelis are, I guss. All I know is that in the Police station I volenteer for here, 60% of the police officers are ARAB...Is that racisem?! Nonsence. We have arab parliament members. Arab soldiers(those who wish to become ones, not mandotry), Arab judges.
Did Israel make some moral mistakes? YES. But the whole reason for the conflict was that the arabs would not take the UN division plan of 1947. So, the arabs started a war, which they are now loosing, and are coplainig about the results! If thwe palestinians wanted peace, they could have it. Look at Jordan and Egypt. Both now have a peace agreemant with Israel.
So, Christos, Jtf2, come here, ill show you around, talk to me, talk to the people in the streets, see how much we want peace. Untill then, you know nothing.

God i love it so!!