Originally Posted by Insomniac

yes, but are you filling the glass or emptying it?

I am sure that mankind is emptying the glass or at least using the contents faster than they are being replenished.

This perhaps is more important than climate change,... Population explosion, as it seems to be happening in the places where it can least be afforded. Also it could have a significant impact far sooner than climate change already several countries that have been net exporters of food are now importers. This too is exacerbated by climate change, but more so as a result of population increase and the rising cost of fertiliser due to the oil crisis.

This could well make another interesting thread.

Ref MontyB's last post; I do not feel that there is anything there that I would disagree with, other than that his first analogy I would not consider precise. However, in general I agree with his post, although I see that I have not adequately described my position to him.

I won't therefore hammer the point; probably the easiest way to make it would be to take up his old car scenario!

Originally Posted by MontyB

The same statement applies to waiting for science to agree it just wont happen because every day we learn something new.

Paleontologists have a saying "I expect everything I discover to eventually be disproven" not because the dinosaur is suddenly going to turn out as a hoax but because we do not know the finer points of the species (colour, sounds etc.) and therefore every piece of the puzzle we find increases our knowledge and makes some other aspect of the puzzle defunct.

Global warming is exactly the same we know global warming/cooling is happening ALL sides agree that it is a natural process and it is this that mankind needs to protect itself from by investigating whether there are any man made causes contributing to this issue.

Lets assume there is no man made contribution to global warming the fact still remains that the "natural process" will continue now given that knowledge what effect are increased/decreased temperatures going to have on the worlds populations from food production to commerce, most of our arable land is in temperate climates, most of our major commercial areas and population centers are built on the coast.

This is not about panicking people into making changes it is about getting as much information as possible as soon as possible so that nations can plan for these changes and reduce the impact in future, now I am not saying there are not panic merchants in the process but these people exist in all areas of life and they are just as dangerous as the "lets ignore the problem" crowd that make up the other end of the spectrum.

I'm happy to go along with that, which is pretty much what I have been saying all along. My disagreement is with those who are insisting that climate change is man made, or at least made noticeably worse by man's use of fossil fuels etc. Even worse are those who seem to be implying that we can turn it around it by reverting to pre industrial lifestyles.

Once you go off on the extremes your story loses credibility because the likelihood of it being grossly inaccurate increases. I'm with MontyB on this.

Originally Posted by Doody

So in less words, your point is the Earth has heated and cooled a bunch of different times before us humans can along and will continue to heat and cool regardless of our actions?

I had to break it down for those members who don't like to read long posts

Hi Doody , how are you going? All the best from Aussie John.

Originally Posted by Insomniac

i personally think that we can't make any major difference. not even a minor difference. i think that it's just part of a cycle of events that constantly goes round and round.

So what do you think we should do? Stick our heads in the dirt?

Originally Posted by Doody

So in less words, your point is the Earth has heated and cooled a bunch of different times before us humans can along and will continue to heat and cool regardless of our actions?

I had to break it down for those members who don't like to read long posts

I hope you're smarter than some of your army mates Doody.

Aussie John.

Originally Posted by 5.56X45mm

Exactly... what we has a group do it so small it's trivial. It's like me pouring a glass of water into the Ocean. I'm all for the environment. If the woods and animals go away then I have to place to hunt/fish/camp.

The Earth has cooled and heated long before we came and it will do it long after we go. The Sun goes through cycles also and heats and cools. Hell, the Polar Ice Caps on Mars are melting..... Do we have any effect on that?

This is rubbish!

Originally Posted by errol

So what do you think we should do? Stick our heads in the dirt?

i think we should keep on as we are. lose all the socalled "green" taxes, and keep developing alternatives. eventually hydrocarbons will run out, and we'll need another fuel source.

Originally Posted by Insomniac

i think we should keep on as we are. lose all the socalled "green" taxes, and keep developing alternatives. eventually hydrocarbons will run out, and we'll need another fuel source.

And the faster necessity pushes us into that the better. That should be the drive. Let us rush on with the 'get rid of oil race.' In the Uk the authorities love the current problem. High oil prices, huge tax revenues from that, stealth taxes galore, excuses for everything blamed on global warming, opting out of weekly rubbish collections, moving to fortnightly and then monthly causing increased rat problems and fly-tipping, invasion of privacy with micro-chips in rubbish bins to spy on users etc., etc.

This is all bringing about increased demands on our freedoms and our finances and impacting upon our lives in a very negative way. I hear there are towns in world with ovens that can destroy any waste at all and turn it into power for the use of the community. If this is so in fact, why have we not got them everywhere here. It is easier, of course, to pluck the golden goose more and more.