About Israel rightfully own the West Bank . Page 4
|January 4th, 2011||#31|
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Its not my fault if a posters echoes views from one of the worst monsters of the 20th century, but I certainly will call him out on it.
"My center is giving way, my right is in retreat situation excellent. I shall attack." -Foch
I am from NYC. I fly a French flag because I work in Paris.
Last edited by mmarsh; January 4th, 2011 at 19:26..
|January 4th, 2011||#32|
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You seem to have problems even to specify what you are talking about: People of Jewish Religion, the Jewish People, or Israelis, or The State Of Israel, etc.? Who is it you are talking about. I know you said "Jewish people", but I know a lot living here in Spain, e.g., so you cannot have meant those, or yes? Seriously, Spaniards owning West Bank? Is it "people" or did you maybe mean "People"? If so, in what expression of community? etc. ...
As you refer to Intl. Law (which one, exactly?), rephrase a bit more specifically, maybe then we can find facts worthy to discuss under the view of this (yet to be specified) law.
15M(ay): Noooobody! ...expects the Spanish Revolution!:
Update SEP 2011: Now reached US, called "Occupy Wall Street" and they claim they invented it. Thanks for learning from Spain!
Last edited by rattler; January 4th, 2011 at 20:05..
|January 4th, 2011||#33|
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You know I am still stumped as to why these discussions continue, seriously lets think about this a little...
Lets assume for shits and giggles the Palestinians are 100% correct and this can some how be enforced no one is going to pack up 4-5 million Israelis and ship them somewhere else, conversely lets assume the Israeli's are 100% correct and their claims can be enforced there is no way in hell all the Palestinians are going to be moved elsewhere either.
So we are left with 3 options:
1) One side wipes the out (I don't care who as I am sick of both sides), probably not going to happen as eventually someone will step in and stop it and it is probably not going to be overly popular with the worlds muslims/jews (insert losing religion here).
2) They will have to grow up and learn to live together now given that religion is involved I really doubt this will happen especially given that most religions are still fighting wars and carrying grudges from hundreds of years ago, so short of a 10th Christian crusade I don't see this being a viable option either.
3) The West gets sick of spending billions a year for Israel to build settlements and Palestinians to buy the rockets to blow them up leading to sending of more cash to fix the mess both sides seem to enthusiastically make and cuts them all off completely forcing them to a negotiating table.
The whole middle eastern argument is inane because neither side can achieve its goals but wont give up until it does.
We are more often treacherous through weakness than through calculation. ~Francois De La Rochefoucauld
|January 5th, 2011||#34|
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I totally agree with your opinion
|January 5th, 2011||#35|
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Lets try and work out who has the right to live in the area now called Israel. Over the last five thousand years it has been settled by countless races and the Israel's are just one of these, and you could all most fill the page listing all the different cultures who have settled in this spot of land and all who have left their mark on it.Now for the last thousand years it has been run by the old Ottam Empire and the Jews and Muslims lived side by side. Many of the Jews held high ranking posts in the Old Ottam Empire and where not barred by their religion from holding such positions.
Now that the Jewish people have the upper hand they seem to me to be operating a Secular ban in reverse, the Palestinians are being forced of the the land that has been in their families for hundreds of years and with out payment, to say that they are second class citzens is a understatement.
LeEnfield Rides again
|January 5th, 2011||#36|
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Ignoring these threads is exactly the same as putting people on ones "banned list", it solves nothing, and if anything just encourages these clowns to keep spouting their drivel and gathering like minded feather heads together.
It would appear that in this thread, the original poster has decided that he has no great support here and has moved on, in which case the answers have achieved an acceptable end..... and of course there is always the very slight chance that you will enlighten a reader/participant as to the truths of the matter.
"I am totally responsible for what I write,... however I cannot be held responsible for your complete inability to understand"
Last edited by senojekips; January 5th, 2011 at 20:10..
|January 5th, 2011||#37|
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But in the end no matter who you believe owns it the crowd that are there need to learn how to get along or they will all lose, Israel can't win simply because the more they repress the Palestinians the more desperate they will get and the more agitated Israels neighbours will become and to be perfectly frank I doubt that Israel could match Egypt today let alone 20-50 years from now, throw into that Iran, Iraq and Turkey and I suspect Israels future is not great should they earn the ire of the Muslim world.
Currently though Israel is protected by the US and safe from relatively weak Arab governments so they have a window of opportunity to get a working peace in place yet they seem more interested in land grabs than peace at the moment it will be interesting to see how views change as US power wanes.
Personally I think the last great hope for a peaceful solution in the region died with Yitzhak Rabin and given that a few months back King Abdullah II of Jordan said that should the settlement moratorium be ended then he believed war was inevitable it is hard to see a positive future for either Palestinians or Israelis.
Last edited by MontyB; January 5th, 2011 at 21:01..
|January 8th, 2011||#38|
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Found this interesting...
Off the record: Is time running out for peace?
By Paul Danahar
Middle East bureau editor
"It was a total waste of time."
This, a Palestinian assessment of the 18 months of proximity talks run by the US special envoy to the Middle East, George Mitchell.
"Rubbish, nothing, no progress whatsoever," said to me by someone with in-depth knowledge of the process, shortly after the direct talks began to run into the sand last month.
Those talks have been abandoned over the issue of Jewish settlements being built on occupied Palestinian land.
So, the State Department has said, George Mitchell is heading back to the region to start over.
Mr Mitchell privately joked that his role as the special Middle East envoy was his "second retirement". Perhaps this will be his third.
Coercion, not seduction
So after all the noise and bluster and the "wasted" time, has this American administration lost all credibility?
"Absolutely," another senior Palestinian source told me this week. And while they like and respect Mr Mitchell, the Palestinians believe it's going to take someone higher up the food chain to move things on.
"It needs the [full] clout of the United States to tell [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu 'You are going to do this', to show willingness to take measures such as those taken by Mr Bush, the father [George HW Bush]."
It was time for Mr Obama to stop trying to "seduce" the Israeli prime minister.
But many commentators from all sides believe that there is little prospect of a peace deal with the present Israeli coalition.
A senior Israeli politician told me last week: "At the end of the day, the choice is between this coalition and peace. Not 'peace process'. They can live with peace process, they like peace process."
The Palestinians too want Mr Netanyahu to dump the right-wingers and offer the centrist party, Kadima, a role in government.
I was told that the leader of Kadima, Tzipi Livni, once said privately about Mr Netanyahu that she would "join the coalition if only to hold his shaking hand while he signs the peace deal".
But while the leaders of the two main Israeli parties do have occasional talks, they seem a long way from a new coalition.
Laughing and fighting
The peace process has been going on now since October 1991, nearly 20 years.
The issues are not new, the likely look of a final deal is not new, not even the people that are discussing the issues are new.
They all know each other, greet like old friends, crack jokes. Then sit down and argue.
The only things that have changed over the years are the lengths of the sideburns and the width of the trousers. But can it keep going on like this?
The Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Moshe Ya'alon told me earlier this year that peace would only be possible with the next generation of Palestinians.
The problem he said was that "the Arabs are still teaching their kids to deny Israel's right to exist".
Attitudes could not be changed in two years, he said: "If they can do it in five years, OK, but..."
'Now-ish or never'
Palestinians say the leadership of Mahmoud Abbas and Salam Fayyad is about as moderate as Israel is going to get.
Hoping that the next generation of Palestinians, walled off by Israel's concrete barrier, is going to be more benign is, they say, wishful thinking.
A former Israeli cabinet minister told me recently he thought that "time is of the essence" before shifts in Israeli society and the growth in the ultra-Orthodox population changes the dynamics for good.
"We have no other alternative, we need to do it. Ten years from now we are going to see something completely different demographically in Israel.
"It's not only about the state of Israel as a democratic and Jewish state but also the substance of the nature of the Israeli Jewish state.
"What does it mean from a religious perspective, from a national perspective… the Jewish-ness of the state? Without solving this, it's going to make it almost impossible."
The fear that it's "now-ish or never" is also shared by foreign diplomats.
"Jerusalem today is Israel tomorrow," one told me, and the demographics in Jerusalem are already "incredible" with just a small percentage of children being educated in secular state schools.
The growth is coming from the ultra-Orthodox Jewish and Israeli Arab communities - the two ends of the spectrum.
The secular Israeli right are also worried about growing signs of intolerance in Israeli society.
Prime Minister Netanyahu just this week condemned a call by 50 state-funded rabbis for a ban on the renting or sale of property to Israeli citizens who are not Jewish.
The call for peace used to be led by the Israeli left but they have been completely marginalised and are up there on the endangered list with the panda.
If this generation can't reach a deal, will the next one even try?
A peace deal within a year was Mr Obama's ambition. That looks very unlikely now.
A peace deal within this generation of Israeli and Palestinians leaders is still not impossible.
A peace deal with this present coalition, according to many, is.
The Palestinians were "hopeful that this administration had all the good intentions to really take us somewhere".
Mr Obama had made all the right noises about "the linkage of the peace process and settlements" and so "Obama took himself up a high tree and we went with him", I was told by a source.
He then likened the president to an old man watching pretty girls pass by.
"Obama," he said, "He has the desire but he doesn't have the capacity."
This is the second in an occasional series of pieces by the BBC's Middle East bureau editor based on off-the-record briefings by officials and decision-makers in the region.
Last edited by MontyB; January 8th, 2011 at 04:36..
|January 12th, 2011||#40|
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With a great chance of being nominated as a Israeli version of Joseph Goebbels, then I would still say this:
Make no mistake. The Palestinians are still fighting to destroy Israel. The primary obstacle to a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians is neither Jewish settlements, Palestinian refugees or the issue of future borders. The conflict has nothing to do with orcupation or security fence, but only with Arab reluctance to accept any Jewish sovereignty in any part of Palestine, however small the part may be.
Only after Israel in 1967struck back an Arab war of aggression on three fronts and took control of Gaza and West Bank, began the Palestinian Arabs (who was now "Palestinians") to claim these areas. But the price - recognition of the Jewish state's right to exist - was too high.
The Oslo process in the 1990s capsized when Arafat in the summer of 2000 rejected a plan that would have given Palestinians Gaza and almost all of the West Bank as a state with East Jerusalem as its capital. The reasion was that they were not prepared to recognize Jewish claim to parts of Jerusalem or would cede the right to flood Israel with the descendants of Palestinian refugees, which would eventually undermine Israel's Jewish identity. If you believe that the "moderate" leadership under Mahmoud Abbas has turned past intransigence you are wrong.
Also in an interview shown on the TV station Al-Jazeera 27th March 2010 Saeb Erekat, Palestinian chief negotiator for both Arafat and Abbas, throws yet more light on the "moderate" Fatah's position on the two state solution. According to Erekat Arafat said to Clinton: "I will not be a traitor. Someone will come and liberate Jerusalem after 10, 50 or 100 years. Jerusalem will not be other than the capital of the Palestinian state, and there's nothing underneath or above the Haram Al-Sharif [the Arabic name for the Temple Mount] except Allah. "(Al-Jazeera, March 27, 2009).
By continuing to refuse to recognize any kind of Jewish connection to what the Jews for a millennia have considered their holiest place, by constantly working against the very core of two-state solution, namely the division of Palestine into both a Jewish and an Arab state , the Palestinian leadership blocks the peaceful solution that the vast majority of Israelis and presumably also the majority of Palestinians crave.
Okay gentleman that was it, now I've said my opinion, so now it is time to get into cover for the incoming artillery fire.
|Don't fault Israel for Palestinians' intransigence|
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|Israel Plans to Hand Over Second West Bank City (Reuters)|
|Israel Agrees to Start Delayed West Bank Pullback (Reuters)|