Originally Posted by senojekips

Could you please explain how you come to the conclusion that the actions of the Zionists is not comparable to that of the Nazis?

The Israelis employ State sanctioned, Gratuitous murder of civilians, beatings, curfews, false imprisonment, denial of humanitarian aid, personal harassment, enforced colonisation, destruction and theft of personal dwellings and public infrastructure. (I could go on, but I think I have made my point)

The only difference at the moment between the behaviour of the Nazis of 1930-40s is the scale of these crimes, and that is increasing as the Israelis slowly push the boundaries. To my way of thought the Israelis are playing a game whereby they are implementing all off the policies of the Nazis, but they are patient enough to be doing it in "Penny lots"

They bleat that they are trying to negotiate a peace, yet while this is all going on their government is still sanctioning the building of more "settlements" on Palestinian land.

I cannot see how anyone who is aware of what is going on cannot see the similarities,... especially those who have the gall to tell us that they are "christians"

I stated it already (did you se the Wannsee thingy in my post?) but you probably missed it:

The big and fundamental (and this is not a "scale" or quantitative thing, it is a qualitatively different and truly perverted attitude) difference of "Nazis" to (what you call) Zionists:

- Israel for all I know does not employ deliberately calculated (by functionaries assinged by state to do just that) *cost optimized* genozide measures (what is cheaper?: 1.2 bullets per corpse - that is the question that started to arise when it turned out that it was too expensive to kill 12 million ppl like that - , electrocution - at what voltage? Gasoline cost per electrocution? Electrocutions per generator? Maintenance cost? -, gassing, etc. in conjunction with cost for disposal of corpses and cost for retrieving marketable issues from corpses like gold teeth, etc.)

- Israel for all I know has not built an *industrialized* genozide machine, where - based on above calculations - a maximum profit at minimum cost needs to be achieved from genocide by extracting maximum profit of the individual and by time and cost optimizing the genozide process.

All that you describe "making your point" is a quantitative scale issue of the methods any other rouge state and/or dictaorship applies right this moment in many spots on the planet, but Israels actions have in no way made the qualitative jump to the two points above that the Nazis decided upon at Wannsee ff. and which is what made them completely different.

Rattler

Originally Posted by rattler

- Israel for all I know does not employ deliberately calculated (by functionaries assinged by state to do just that) *cost optimized* genozide measures (what is cheaper?: 1.2 bullets per corpse - that is the question that started to arise when it turned out that it was too expensive to kill 12 million ppl like that - , electrocution - at what voltage? Gasoline cost per electrocution? Electrocutions per generator? Maintenance cost? -, gassing, etc. in conjunction with cost for disposal of corpses and cost for retrieving marketable issues from corpses like gold teeth, etc.)

- Israel for all I know has not built an *industrialized* genozide machine, where - based on above calculations - a maximum profit at minimum cost needs to be achieved from genocide by extracting maximum profit of the individual and by time and cost optimizing the genozide process.

All that you describe "making your point" is a quantitative scale issue of the methods any other rouge state and/or dictaorship applies right this moment in many spots on the planet, but Israels actions have in no way made the qualitative jump to the two points above that the Nazis decided upon at Wannsee ff. and which is what made them completely different.

Rattler

Rattler even you posted a quote from my earlier post saying "Other than the Death camps", yet almost all of the dissimilarities you have quoted above were connected with the death camps. I regard the things like the selling of assets etc., that happened in the death camps to be part of that system.

As I said the similarities are blindingly obvious. I won't retype my "short list" of crimes again as I'm sure that you read them before,... or did you? Can you tell me any one of these things that I listed that did not have it's direct equivalent with Nazi persecution of the Jews, from 1933 onwards?

Regarding Wannsee Conference. This was a very late event in Germany, not until 1942, but systematic persecution of the Jews had been in place as a matter of State policy since the adoption of the Nuremberg laws which were enacted on 1st April 1933. The Jews were in fact persecuted long before this but this is the date when it became policy.

As for what the Israelis have decided as matters of policy we have no idea, as I'm sure that they would not make their decisions on a matter like this open to world wide scrutiny. All we have as evidence is the current murder theft and generalised bloodshed among the Palestinian population to form our opinions on.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Rattler even you posted a quote from my earlier post saying "Other than the Death camps", yet almost all of the dissimilarities you have quoted above were connected with the death camps. I regard the things like the selling of assets etc., that happened in the death camps to be part of that system.

And this ("other than the death camps") is exactly what I am recriminating: That you obviously cannot see the qualitative difference the death camps make (or do not want to acknowledge it as fundamental), from all the other stuff that is just quantitatively different from other dicatorship states (and in this lattter I subscribe your analysis, it just does not qualify for the comparism to the Nazi fascist system, because it is a polemic word, you could also say Chinese - Tibet!- or someone else - rather long list I guess - but you chose that special word for rather - I suspect - demagogic reasons).

Originally Posted by senojekips

As I said the similarities are blindingly obvious. I won't retype my "short list" of crimes again as I'm sure that you read them before,... or did you? Can you tell me any one of these things that I listed that did not have it's direct equivalent with Nazi persecution of the Jews, from 1933 onwards? -snip-

And I say the similarites are not obvious. While some things coincide with the Nazi methods of persecuting jews, they also coincide with the methods Mobuto employed to persecute the Lumumba follwers, or with what the Chinese do in Tibet, or what the serbs did in Kosovo, Bosnia etc. (Srebrenizca?!), just to name a few.

To say its the same methods like the Nazis ignores the qualitative difference of their final solution methods and as such is used for demagogics (sorry if I repeat myself).

I would not protest if you say they employ the same methods as the Chinese or the Serbs, but by using the "Nazi" designation you downvalue one of the most perverted things that ever have happened on this planet to something every dictator does. You can say they "behave like a fascist state", and I might even agree, but if you say they "behave like the Nazis" (which in this context implies the Holocaust) then I must say: No, factually they don´t.

That is probably my last word about *this* part of the overall issue, I think I have made myself clear enough and if you cannot see it, welll: Nobody is perfect...

Rattler

Originally Posted by rattler

And this ("other than the death camps") is exactly what I am recriminating: That you obviously cannot see the qualitative difference the death camps make (or do not want to acknowledge it as fundamental), from all the other stuff that is just quantitatively different from other dicatorship states (and in this lattter I subscribe your analysis, it just does not qualify for the comparism to the Nazi fascist system, because it is a polemic word, you could also say Chinese - Tibet!- or someone else - rather long list I guess - but you chose that special word for rather - I suspect - demagogic reasons).

I would guarantee that those killed, harassed and who have had their possessions stolen by the Zionists could not see the qualitative difference, as there is no such thing as a qualitative difference in these things. eg If you were murdered by, for instance, a state sponsored organisation like the KGB or whatever it's equivalent is at the moment, I'll guarantee that you would be just as dead as if you had been murdered by the Nazis or Zionists To state that there is a qualitative difference in these things is a "cop out". I guarantee that neither you nor anyone else could tell the difference.

And I say the similarities are not obvious. While some things coincide with the Nazi methods of persecuting jews, they also coincide with the methods Mobuto employed to persecute the Lumumba follwers, or with what the Chinese do in Tibet, or what the serbs did in Kosovo, Bosnia etc. (Srebrenizca?!), just to name a few.

What you say here is very true, and supports my point precisely,... but unfortunately that is not the subject at hand, I thought that we were discussing the Zionists in Israel. However I will gladly agree with you should you feel that it warrants discussion in a new thread on other States employing similar methods around the world.

To say its the same methods like the Nazis ignores the qualitative difference of their final solution methods and as such is used for demagogics (sorry if I repeat myself).

You keep referring to "The Final Solution" and I must keep reminding you that it is nothing to do with my original statement that I said "Except the Death Camps" (and their associated apparatus). There is nothing demagogic about stating the obvious truth about a murdering regime that is not only falsely occupying the land of another people, but is harassing and murdering women and children because their menfolk are resisting. All of these acts are direct equivalents of those policies carried out by the Nazis.

I would not protest if you say they employ the same methods as the Chinese or the Serbs, but by using the "Nazi" designation you downvalue one of the most perverted things that ever have happened on this planet to something every dictator does. You can say they "behave like a fascist state", and I might even agree, but if you say they "behave like the Nazis" (which in this context implies the Holocaust) then I must say: No, factually they don´t.

You have answered my statement, you say that you would not object to me stating that the Zionists are behaving like a Fascist State, Well, That is exactly what I am saying, and the particular fascist State that they are behaving most like is that of the Nazi party. The term "Holocaust" implies the whole policy, whereas I specifically said, and I repeat, "With the exception of the death Camps" This is merely a straw man argument.

That is probably my last word about *this* part of the overall issue, I think I have made myself clear enough and if you cannot see it, welll: Nobody is perfect...

Rattler

"Nobody is perfect",

Here we are talking of state sponsored policy of organised theft harassment and murder of the civil populace, and all you can say is that these people are not "perfect". I feel that this severely under thought statement is truly indicative of your whole argument, "it certainly lacks an honest qualitative assessment".

If you feel that my statements make me a demagogue,... so be it, but I am also equally demagogic regarding those other mentioned "Failed States" who employ similar policies around the world. Which rather takes the sting out of being called a demagogue.

Originally Posted by senojekips

"Nobody is perfect",

Here we are talking of state sponsored policy of organised theft harassment and murder of the civil populace, and all you can say is that these people are not "perfect". I feel that this severely under thought statement is truly indicative of your whole argument, "it certainly lacks an honest qualitative assessment".

Well, you made me answer one more time:

You are twisting my words to your liking and claiming statements I quite obviously didn´t make (actually, I think you already understand the words you read in the way you want to understand them through your personal ideological filter *when you read them* instead of capturing what they actually state - which is, btw, perfectly human), I was (quite clearly expressed btw, highlighted for you this time) not talking about "these people" but about *you*.

Where in the above do you read it otherwise? Stuff like that makes discussions impossible and clearly marks a demagogue.

Rattler

[quote]Because the land in question is not "Israel" it actually belongs to the Palestinians. As has been previously pointed out, No country or group of countries has the right to just give away someone else's land, those people are honor bound to reclaim their land. [quote]

senjo how would you like it if the aboriginals used this argument to reclaim australia?

i was just thinking hmmm

[QUOTE=captiva303;542668][quote]Because the land in question is not "Israel" it actually belongs to the Palestinians. As has been previously pointed out, No country or group of countries has the right to just give away someone else's land, those people are honor bound to reclaim their land.

senjo how would you like it if the aboriginals used this argument to reclaim australia?

i was just thinking hmmm

I don't think that "thinking was the operative word, you just bashed off the first stupid thing that came into your head didn't you? Why don't you ask some aboriginals if that is what they want? Do you actually know any,... do you have any idea of what they actually think other than the few "set up" half castes from the slum suburbs of our cities who are fed leading questions by those with a second agenda?

They know as a race that if we were to go, tomorrow, they would be Indonesian, or less likely, Chinese subjects the moment we closed the door behind us.

does that include family?
i wasn't suggesting that aboriginals want that i was testing whether your argument would be applied
universally
half-caste are we allowed to use such derogatory terms on this forum?

Originally Posted by rattler

Where in the above do you read it otherwise? Stuff like that makes discussions impossible and clearly marks a demagogue.
Rattler

OK, I misread your answer, and the reason I read it like that was that it was the most likely meaning of what you had written in view of the facts.

Of course I am not a demagogue, I have merely pushed you into a corner with no place to go, so out come the names, we've already disproved the Anti semite label, now I'm a demagogue, because I dare to point out the truth and won't back down.

You talk of me being a demagogue, yet you just overlook all of the evidence and obvious similarities I have posted. Now that,... is what most people would call being a demagogue....

If you like we can go through them one at a time. Let's start somewhere near the top. The video posted showing the shooting of a Palestinian Farmer working in his fields by Israeli troops. There is any amount of backing for this incident. Would you care to explain why this is not behaviour similar to that Nazi troops, as I think it is.

We can work our way down through the remainder at your leisure. The beatings of civilians, all the good stuff like forced evictions, relocations,.... you know the list I have put up previously, and it grows by the day.

Denials without evidence and then name tagging, I really expected better of you Rattler.

Originally Posted by captiva303

does that include family?
i wasn't suggesting that aboriginals want that i was testing whether your argument would be applied
universally
half-caste are we allowed to use such derogatory terms on this forum?

Don't be a smart @rse, you are not up to it, believe me. Answer the question as I answered yours.

Half cast is a perfectly acceptable term for description a person of half mixed blood, there is nothing derogatory in it.

[QUOTE

Don't be a smart arse, you are not up to it, believe me. Answer the question as I answered yours.

Half cast is a perfectly acceptable term for description a person of half mixed blood, there is nothing derogatory in it.[/QUOTE]

that largely depends on context and if you have a look at what you had said it did not appear all to freindly