Islam allows rape & torture?

Under the Brit palestine,there were not Palestinians, it was shared by Jews and Arabs.
As I have told you before at your specific request,... but you have selectively forgotten. These are the people whom I refer to as Palestinians They were the owners of the land before the large scale invasion of the influx of European Jews, and those people were in the most part Arabs.

The Brits gace 75% of it to the Arabs as Trans-Jordan---snip---
Because the land in question is not "Israel" it actually belongs to the Palestinians. As has been previously pointed out, No country or group of countries has the right to just give away someone else's land, those people are honor bound to reclaim their land. As I said earlier because you would not have the backbone to defend your own country if it was given to a "deserving" group like the Etiopians, this does not mean that the Palestinians should do the same.
The problem in Israel is not about land, it is about the elimination of the Jews.
Pardon??? I think you have it all "@rse a'peak" my very forgetful friend. It is the Palestinians who are being eliminated, as documented by an Israeli Human Rights organisation.
Death003converted.jpg


As Hoffman said:- The lie that Israel behaves like Nazi Germany is presently massively financed by Saudi oil money. The fact that some sensible and normally sceptical peopls buy into this obscene b******t shows me that money can influence even the most educated. It is easy to understand viscerally how the Nazis were able to make REAL mass murder possible: through the same application of the big lie that the Palestinians and the Saudis and the Taliban are presently using so successfully using right now.

And you are perpetuating the same propaganda here; without the threat of Israel's annihilation, none of the current symptoms you promote so eagerly would not exist.

You dismiss the activities of the Hitler's Nazis lightly. You allow your prejudice to blind you to their record. I recommend you enlighten yourself, I should not have to educate you on that subject.
WTF was Hoffman?, and what does he have to do with the illegal dispossession of the Palestinian people. Hoffman was obviously a Zionist or Zionist sympathiser, his thought are not worth the two seconds he wasted formulating them.

I do NOT dismiss the Nazis lightlly, it is a direct comparison shown to be very true, the fact is that you are dismissing the Zionist murderers far too lightly. There is a great similarity in their murderous ways.
Other than the death camps they are trying every other aspect of Nazi policy. Gratuitous murder, beatings, curfews, false imprisonment, theft, harassment, enforced colonisation, how much more do you want?
Of course I could also add deliberate provocation, to occasion further murder of civilians and civilian infrastructure using weapons specifically banned by the International Treaty on Human Rights (Phosphorus shells) give me a few minutes and no doubt I could find another 20 or 30 atrocities.

I have already shown the similarities between the Nazi treatment of the Jews in Europe,and the Zionist's treatment of the Palestinians. But of course this is where your selective memory drops out again.

Now I am prepared to take Senojekips video's with some skepticism as they are clearly made and edited to portray one side of the story but at there core those video's are recording events and that can not be dismissed as entirely propaganda.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1A1-D8TCF1FG3.html
http://farmingunderfire.blogspot.com/2009/06/another-farmer-injured-by-israeli-army.html
http://ingaza.wordpress.com/2009/02...alestinian-farmer-4th-farmer-shot-in-3-weeks/

Just google Palestinian farmer shot by Israeli Army, I got 311,000 hits of which many are repeats, but I think it's would be fair to say theat there is a great probability that my "propaganda" has a good grounding in fact.
 
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Israel is using some of the methods the nazis had used (on all matters not just military matters but also political) , but that is to be expected. The Nazis didn't do anything new other than the industrialized execution of people in Guss chambers.

Interestingly On the matters propaganda the Nazis are mostly the biggest allies of Israel and teachers and not the opposite.

And again that was to be expected.

The Arabs unsuccessfully , also attempted to use propaganda and imperialism effectively.

In fact i think that it is a compliment that Israel is compared to the German state of the past. The truth though is that many states are very similar to it and used simillar methods. Israel's example for special reasons is most striking one.

Like i said , Iran also uses several of the same methods. But when they do it they affect negativelly their interests as a society and as a country , nation. Because Iranians are also the focus of their problematic societies. I think a bigger focus than jews. The problem with Iran is not Jews but Islam it self.

Israel on the other hand is not doing such mistakes. They have a modernised society even if the methods they follow are quite appalinng to not Jews of the area. And are war crimes. Other than that it is a modern state and a good example for Arabs to follow in that region as a society.

Nevertheless , the way they treat palestinians is ofcource making people call "Nazis " ! If only because Israel rightfully so , for it's own interests used them and still does to justiffy any of it;s actions in the area. And since it is a modern state one even has bigger expectations from it.

However Only the Palestinians are the victims of Israel's actions. Other countries of the region should understand that blaming Israel for all their problems will neither fix their problem nor improve the situation of the people. only societal change would. So it is a convenient lie for leaders to use and blame all of their problems on the Jews but it is really a convenient lie to mask an inconvenient truth.

Their societies must change if they want to see progress.

And the Jews should stop blaming everyone else for their problems. Ok you want to protect your interests in an area , and keep your military control over it and expand your settlers. This would have sideffects whether you like it or not. Israel is not going to conquer any time soon all it neighboors even if it could take on one or two and conquer them afterwards. But it does currently occuppy imperialistically an area. And it won't leave it. Countries don't do this. And for this their sideffects and consequences. Ok . Live with them. In the end the sporadic violence is too low of a price to pay and i am being frank here.

However the question to ask is if this policy is in accordance to Israel interests or if their is ideology behind it.

What will Israel do about the Palestinian question ?

What is in it's interest to do ?

Nothing ? Or something specific? I don't know.

In any case , no matter my nazi comments previously (which also hold truth for several countries in the world not only Israel , but i don;t think it can describe most countries in the world . Iran maybe and several others. I am not sure about how many modern "democratic" states pass the criteria) , Israel is a modern state socially and though i want the Palestinians to be granted human rights by the Israeli occupiors , my sympathies also to an extend lie with the Israellis as well.

Defensive imperialism some could call them that was forced both by the situation and by political leaderships.


And that forced them to change more as a people and as a state.

I hope that necessity forces both the Israeli to change and most importantly the Arabs whose problems are far deeper than the problems of Israel in my eyes as they are not a problem of nationalism or imperialism.

The problem is Islam or Islamic extremism and the social that comes with it.

In general because Israelis are not Islamist , unless demographcs have something to do about it , i see a better future for them as a people even if they resort to barbarism , not "out of necessity only if even" but also out of imperialsim and interests. (the same as other states in the area also do.)
 
honestly senojo that last video is very suspicious...if she is being shot at, why would the woman just stand there? and where is the guy who was shot? there is no blood, no wound.

you cant believe everything you see.
Especially if you deliberately make no effort to check it's validity,... just Google "Anwar Zayed al Buraim". I think you watch too many war movies and have little idea of what you are looking at.

While you are at it You can also Google Palestinian farmer shot by Israeli army, you will get over 300,000 hits. This is State condoned murder, does that remind you of anything???

and it still comes back to the basic point at the root of the conflict, you dont feel israel, the jews, have any any right to a state in their homeland
Can you tell me any other sectarian group who has a "homeland", especially one that has been stolen from the people who have owned it for 1200 years?:p
 
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As I have told you before at your specific request,... but you have selectively forgotten. These are the people whom I refer to as Palestinians They were the owners of the land before the large scale invasion of the influx of European Jews, and those people were in the most part Arabs.


Wrong. I remember all.

The people you refer to as 'those who today call themselves Palestinian'.

And you insistantly assured us there were 1,340,200 of them in 2004.

Now these so-called 'owners of the land'. Show us their claim to 'ownership'.
 
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If you "remember all" why did you ask the question again,... is this part part of your act to derail sensible debate again DB?? Either that or you are an out and out liar.

It's all been said before DB, or have you forgotten,....... again. Selective memory, eh...

Like last time this stupidity started, I am not going to run around for you, re-telling you everything if you can't remember,... go and look if you've forgotten.

What is your problem, do you not read people's answers to your questions, or are you just too thick to grasp the meaning. It's always been your game hasn't it, "The circular argument" round and round we go, as I've told you once before it's all over with me.

While you are sulking about my answer here's something you can watch, a nice bit of State sanctioned torture and deliberate crippling of civilians.
Israeli soldiers use Rock to Break the arm of Palestinian
It makes you proud doesn't it? Where's your christian morals now DB?
.
I feel better and better about being an Atheist every day.
 
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I have wasted enough of my time on Senojekips. I consider him nothing but a bellowing empty vessel who believes that just because he says something it must be so. I could spend months picking through the small lies which run through the great propaganda he perpetuates as a purveyor of hatred.

So just let me re-iterate my position on this subject, once and for all. Here is a reflection of how I see it, in my continual appeal for peace in the region:-


"Living together in unity as brothers and sisters is a sign of the children who accept God and who will rule His kingdom. The people of Israel, Egypt, the Arab nations, the United States, and all countries must reflect deeply on this.
There is one other area upon which the larger nations need to focus their attention. On the day that an amicable settlement is achieved between the Palestinians and Israel, divisiveness will be erased, wars will stop, peace will be assured, and the destruction will be halted. The only hope for that area lies in convincing these two groups to live in unity as peaceful neighbors, with border security maintained between the two lands by a United Nations Peace Force.
Look at Jerusalem. How many wars have been fought, how many people have ruled, how many have been enslaved, how much danger and suffering there has been! If we can understand this and bring peace to Jerusalem, then all those who believe in God can live in unity. Lack of faith in God is the root of all enmity. And that divisiveness will cease only if those who reject God can be kept from infiltrating Jerusalem. On the very day that this is realized by all people who believe in God, no matter what religion they might follow, then religious differences will disappear and the battles will stop. There will be no more murders, no more blood baths. All differences will be cut away.
Each one of you, the United Nations, America, Europe, the African and Arab countries, Israel, England, and all others who trust in God must realize this basic cause of enmity and cut it away. I say this because the war of destruction seems to be imminent, and I can see where the enemy is. All must join in unity, now!
God accepts Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. All are found in Jerusalem, yet those who have faith in God as well as those who do not have faith in God continue to fight over that land, even though it only results in destruction. There have been many who have ruled that area and many who have even ruled the earth, but they are all gone. And there are still more to come who will rule and then pass on. No one can rule forever.
Please reflect on this and realize that other than God all else will change. Everything in this world changes; only God remains the same forever. If mankind will realize this truth, then we can avert disaster by coming together with faith in God and living in unity and compassion. Do not live divided. With compassion for each other, live in unity and truth, in the presence of God. Live according to justice and conscience, respecting the lives and bodies of all others as your own, and knowing the hunger and the suffering of others as your own. Have patience, contentment, trust in God, and live praising God at all times and peace will be easy.
We must realize this and take the proper steps to avert disaster before the bombs start falling. Very soon those bombs might burst in our hands. But if we can establish a state of peace, we might gain victory over destruction.
All these things have happened before, and they are happening again. And to what avail? We must learn to live as one human race, worship one God, and fashion laws of righteousness and justice which will take us back to our Creator. That will provide exaltedness to our lives. That will elevate our lives.
We must all attain this state. This is why I most humbly ask all of you to try to avert the disaster that threatens us. Let there be unity among mankind. If we live without the differences of I and you, we can escape from this imminent destruction. Instead of trying to cure the illness of our differences with the arrogance that thinks, "We are better than they are!" we must cure that illness by using God's tolerance and His other gracious qualities. We must use God's power to avert the dangers and disasters that threaten mankind. If we can live with compassion and justice, then laws of truth will govern, unity will live on, patience will be eternal, and compassion will never fail. Absolute justice will reign forever. Mankind must think of this.

All of us must join together to bring peace to the Holy City."

Ah - that's better out than in! Hallejuyah!
 
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So your position is that we should leave it to a mythical figure to solve the problem?

I guess that is one way of ignoring the problem, bet the British government felt the same way in 1948 after Balfour Declaration of 1917.
 
I have wasted enough of my time on Senojekips. I consider him nothing but a bellowing empty vessel who believes that just because he says something it must be so. I could spend months picking through the small lies which run through the great propaganda he perpetuates as a purveyor of hatred.
Ahhh,..... too embarrassed to fall back on your standard "Anti Semite" quote, the answer to all criticism of Zionist murder and mayhem. Or have you at last learned that the Arabs are semites too? That would be almost too much to ask, it's only taken several years.

At least good old seno's posts have had video proof to back his "Empty vessel" claims, unlike your ludicrous claims of things like the Israelis "enviable" treatment of the Palestinians.

At least it will now perhaps allow the thread to get back on topic.
 
I feel like every muscle in my body is in revolt. I cut TWO Baseball backstops down toady, Its eh fall season here, so the old backstops that are unsafe are contracted out to be replaced with new ones, only problem is my shop gets to do eth demolition, theres only two of us, so we use a cutting torch and a LOT of manual labor, today I'm so dam tired, I will not be a creature of the night this evening :( Instead I might just die, (if theres a god)



Ops, wrong thread.
 
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Spike. Del. Really guys we aren't going to solve this here. Both of you have strongley held beliefs and niether of you are going to change the others mind. So if you would lets just cut the pissing contest short. Thanks.
 
Spike. Del. Really guys we aren't going to solve this here. Both of you have strongley held beliefs and niether of you are going to change the others mind. So if you would lets just cut the pissing contest short. Thanks.
As always you are quite correct 03, and I certainly respect your opinion on the matter. To some of us though it's no pissing contest, people are dying and being made to live as second class citizens in their own country as a result of this. I'm not a game player, and I don't see any sense in neverending posts on such trivia as "What is the time where you are"

I know I can't fix the problem, and I know that I won't change the opinions of those who support this needless bloodshed, however it just may enlighten less informed people as to what is actually going on.

There are almost no subjects discussed on this forum that any of us have any hope of affecting the outcome, but without discussion on them, there is little real reason for any of us being here.

I hope that this has not offended you, but that is my honest opinion, for what it's worth.
 
Not offended at all Spike. I understand your POV and I believe that you and I agreed to disagree on this issue sometime back. Just want to lower the heat on this for a bit.
 
So your position is that we should leave it to a mythical figure to solve the problem?


Monty B , I understood that you were keen to introduce the religious aspect into proceedings; you were happy to rely upon 'mythical figures' then.

Also, the message says nothing like you suggest, far from it ; did you read it at all? Or did you simply run at the first hint of "God"?

However, I am pleased to tell you that my last post was in fact an Islamic message to the world, and indeed it does reflect my own position, as I have often said on threads on this subject. That is - Peace is the answer and the great benefit to all, and should be supported.


As for Senojekips, who cannot grasp the scale of Holocaust and the Nazis,- 'except for the death camps' he says !!!; I am happy to leave him having bought into the great demonising of Israel at every turn, and thereby continuing to promote Hitler's final solution of annihilation. His stance may suit the Arabs at the moment, but at an awful price.

And, of course, having taken this thread completely off topic, deliberately, in order to continue his tirade against peace in Israel, he now complains.


03USMC

Apologies to you. It had been my intention to do just as you suggest, and I will be more than happy to do so.

I could not see how you avoid death and bloodshed by inciting war, and felt obliged to speak out.

You will have no disorder from me.
 
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Weather on not any religion, country, peopel, or govt, allows rape and torture, will never be officially be admitted. BUT I have seen evidence or torture, in several places I have been, I'd like to believe that a single religion wouldn't allow these things, but in reality, this is not the case. All religions have torture in their past, or present. be it in the name of a god or some other deity, it goes on either in public, or in secret.
Want a example of the torture I've seen. become a shrink and go inside my head. Just be careful, you might not like what you find in there.
 
Ya know I asked a friend who is muslim about this and his answer kinda surprised me.

Basically he said the some muslims interpt portions of the Koran to allow this type of behavior if it is committed against "nonbelievers AKA infidels" because their non belief in Islam is an affront to Allah and there for less than human so it does not offend Allah or go against the teachings of the Koran.

I found that interesting.
 
As for Senojekips, who cannot grasp the scale of Holocaust and the Nazis,- 'except for the death camps' he says !!!; -snip- His stance may suit the Arabs at the moment, but at an awful price.
As German, and as a historically interested person, and as personally detesting what Israel has been (and is) doing over in Palestina and the occupied territories, one thing results quite clear to me, and I am all along with Del Boy here (differing with him almost everyhwere else):

The scale of what was attempted and done in Holocaust has not yet ever before and after been matched on this planet, nor by Stalin (as the revisionist like to count up in numbers of dead politicall opponents), nor in Cambodcha, and way less today in Israel:

The mere thought of *cost optimizing* and *industrializing* geno/religiozide as an explicitly voiced state plan (see Wannsee Conference) had unto then been unprecedent and never been attempted again.

It is easy to call someone "nazi" or "fascist" (the latter happens to me - outspoken Socialist! just ridiculous! - from young guys here when I say "Mallorca is a province of Spain"...), but the people using those words are actually devaluating them and taking their weight and impact out by using them as they have not the faintest idea what they actually mean if looked at seriously, it has become a fashion of using them w/o thinking twice (progress?).

A right wing person not necessarily must be a fascist, a fascist not necessarily compares to a nazi (same goes for the the left: a liberal is not a socialist, a sozi is not "per se" a commie, a commie is not a stalinist, etc...), we have differnt words for different stances and attitudes simply *because they describe different political stances* (else, why have different words for starters?).

Comparing some of Israels moves with socia control/suppressive moves of Nazi Germany is fine (but this also goes for other states), stating that they violate every human right law written down in the last 80 years might be correct, but calling them "Nazis" (or implying so saying they are acting like them) is way off the mark, and severly off the mark.

My 2c

JFDR: I don´t think I can bring rationality back to this discussion of youngsters/oldies that do not yet/anymore know (self?) doubt, but one has to try anyway.

Rattler
 
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Ya know I asked a friend who is muslim about this and his answer kinda surprised me.

Basically he said the some muslims interpt portions of the Koran to allow this type of behavior if it is committed against "nonbelievers AKA infidels" because their non belief in Islam is an affront to Allah and there for less than human so it does not offend Allah or go against the teachings of the Koran.

I found that interesting.

The problem is that interpretations of any religious book will tell you the same thing, I would suggest that the vast majority of all religions are moderates who do not see things quite so clear cut while extremists of all religions see only that aspect of the book.

Both the Bible and the Koran (insert any of the other "holy" books) are designed to be interpreted to suit the reader and all of them have violent aspects that will appeal to someone looking for that, we have 2000 years years of recorded history to show us the dark side of religion and how it can be used to manipulate the masses.

Basically I am saying that all religions are equally bad in bad hands

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the Israeli aspect of the argument, I understand it that about 10-11 million people died in concentration camps id we take the Jewish element out of that we are down to 4-5 million (gypsies, mentally retarded, intellectuals, homosexuals etc.) where is there home land?

I would suggest that if people are going to use the holocaust as a justification for a Jewish homeland then then pretty much everyone else that survived the concentration camps has equal claim.
Perhaps Del Boy could send a list of under utilised sections in his neighbourhood we can redistribute (they don't have to be empty just under used).
 
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Interesting as the Qu'ran refers to everyone as Muslim, just that it's up to them to accept it or not. I will double and triple check on that to make sure.
Funny how so many people say crap about the arabs and muslims because of the radicals, but they fail to note the same kind of racism you find there you will find here. You will find so many white supremacists that are Christian-based, just as you find muslim-supremacists arab based. Racism is everywhere and in every culture. It's a fact of life.
 
As German, and as a historically interested person, and as personally detesting what Israel has been (and is) doing over in Palestina and the occupied territories, one thing results quite clear to me, and I am all along with Del Boy here (differing with him almost everyhwere else):

The scale of what was attempted and done in Holocaust has not yet ever before and after been matched on this planet, nor by Stalin (as the revisionist like to count up in numbers of dead politicall opponents), nor in Cambodcha, and way less today in Israel:


Comparing some of Israels moves with socia control/suppressive moves of Nazi Germany is fine (but this also goes for other states), stating that they violate every human right law written down in the last 80 years might be correct, but calling them "Nazis" (or implying so saying they are acting like them) is way off the mark, and severly off the mark.Rattler
Could you please explain how you come to the conclusion that the actions of the Zionists is not comparable to that of the Nazis?

The Israelis employ State sanctioned, Gratuitous murder of civilians, beatings, curfews, false imprisonment, denial of humanitarian aid, personal harassment, enforced colonisation, destruction and theft of personal dwellings and public infrastructure. (I could go on, but I think I have made my point)

The only difference at the moment between the behaviour of the Nazis of 1930-40s is the scale of these crimes, and that is increasing as the Israelis slowly push the boundaries. To my way of thought the Israelis are playing a game whereby they are implementing all off the policies of the Nazis, but they are patient enough to be doing it in "Penny lots"

They bleat that they are trying to negotiate a peace, yet while this is all going on their government is still sanctioning the building of more "settlements" on Palestinian land.

I cannot see how anyone who is aware of what is going on cannot see the similarities,... especially those who have the gall to tell us that they are "christians"
 
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