Originally Posted by Uncle_Sam

'Cause USA woudn't be there on 6th June '44 to save Soviet asses

It is debatable who was saving whos ass. In 1944 SU didn't need help anymore, also in the battle of the Bulge the west begged Stalin to accelerate the preperations wor the final Soviet offensive to take the pressure of the Americans in the Ardenes. The ofensive was in fact launched weeks ahead of its planed time so don't get to carried away

Yes, although my hatred of all things communist, it pains me to say that in relation to the grand scheme, the US and Britain did not save the Soviets ass with Normandy, or anything else.

If Japan had invaded they would have more than likely invaded through the North and south in a pincer attack. Surround the USSR forces and forvce a surrender.

Originally Posted by airmanpatroler

If Japan had invaded they would have more than likely invaded through the North and south in a pincer attack. Surround the USSR forces and forvce a surrender.

Japan didn't attack the Soviets for 3 reasons.

First, there was very little for them to gain if they did so, Siberia was at that time thousands of miles of nothingness.

Secondly, The Japanese army was an infantry army with very few tanks( and the ones they had were crap) and almost no transport. If they invaded the majority of their army would have to walk Their logistics would fail before they got anywhere.

Thirdly, They had already taken on the Soviets in the 30's and the Soviets had kicked their butts. The Japanese military wasn't in the mood to get their butts kicked again

In 1941 the Italians attacked the British in N,Africa with a massive army very similar to the Japanese army, lots of infantry with very few tanks and transport. A very small but highly mobile British force using the open spaces of the desert cut them to pieces.
The same thing would have happened to the Japanese if they had tried to take on the Soviets in the vastness of Siberia.

One must not also forget the campagin in Manchuria in 1945 when in a matter of days the Red Army overran the Kwangtung army and occupied teritory the size of Western Europe (the Soviet forces numbered soume 1.500.000 vs. the Japanese strenght of 1.000.000).

In 1941 the situation in the Russian army was hopeless and not comparable with the situation the Russian Army was in during the Manchurian campaign. Stalin had about 75% off the Red Armies officers executed 3 or 4 years before Barbarossa began.

If wiping out the USSR would have been the goal of both the Japanese and Germans and they where planning a combined assault then why would the Japanese even bother to attack Pearl Harbor knowing that after conquering Russia oil would be available in large numbers. With that in mind it would be more logical for the Japanese Imperial Navy to whoop the British Imperial Navy's ass and to start hauling troops to Europe for a massive assault starting in Western Russia or hauling German troops and equipment (mostly tanks/aircraft) to Japanese held territory. Another option could be joining Rommels force and attack from the south.

Rick

Originally Posted by Dutchy

If wiping out the USSR would have been the goal of both the Japanese and Germans

Thats the major, major problem, it wasn't a goal of the Japanese. They wanted natural resources, like oil, rubber, etc.

Attacking Russia would not give them these.

and they where planning a combined assault then why would the Japanese even bother to attack Pearl Harbor knowing that after conquering Russia oil would be available in large numbers.

During WW2 the Japanese and Germany didn't combine on anything important. They weren't Allies in the true sense, more fellow travellers. The Japanese hadn't even bothered to tell Hitler of the attack on Pearl Harbor, he only found out after the attack.
As for Russian oil being available to them, if Russia was defeated. Only if Hitler allowed it, and the Japanese in truth trusted Hitler as much as the rest of the world did

With that in mind it would be more logical for the Japanese Imperial Navy to whoop the British Imperial Navy's ass and to start hauling troops to Europe for a massive assault starting in Western Russia or hauling German troops and equipment (mostly tanks/aircraft) to Japanese held territory. Another option could be joining Rommels force and attack from the south.

These are all totally impossible, The Japanese didn't have the logistic capability to transport and supply over such an immense distance. Even if they attempted it, the supply routes would be very exposed to allied attack, the Japanese navy while impressive when it came to heavy units, was lacking in smaller vessels for use in convoy escort duties.

I believe the Japanese had amassed an Army to invade the Soviet Union but were crushed by Soviet Artillery, Japan so badly feared the Soviets from that day forth that even when the opportunity was ripe the would not attack.

The problem with these sort of discussions is that they are hypothetical and it looks like most people tend to forget this and compare the hypothesis with the actual situation and or events during WW2. By doing this it is really easy to argument why it would not work out.

Rick

Originally Posted by Dutchy

The problem with these sort of discussions is that they are hypothetical and it looks like most people tend to forget this and compare the hypothesis with the actual situation and or events during WW2. By doing this it is really easy to argument why it would not work out.

Rick

If you don't base the hypothesis in fact, its totally worthless.

the japs would have been stretched too dont forget....

they would have had to still do pearl before they atacked SU for thew oil...so they would be fighting on 2 fronts as well.....and all the SU had to do was send china equiptment and leave them too it....they would have plenty of warning if the japs broke through and then they could worry about defending the ''motherland''