I don’t see the conflict in Middle East ending for a very long time. At least not until countries in that region have a period of enlightenment like Europe did and develop into secular democracies (the closest thing civilization has come up with so far to a fair form of mass rule). This gradual development can only be initiated from within and cannot be forced or imposed from the outside, because its foundation is the trust of the people in their government and society. Therefore it is not the governments that solve the conflict, but the development of the people that inhabit that region

In conclusion, don’t drop bombs on people that are trapped in an isolated prison without food or water – that only creates an entirely new generation of children that will hate your guts for killings the people around them. And don’t burn flags, we already have enough CO2 going into our atmosphere. No, what Israelis and Palestinians should do (if I may be so bold to propose a solution) is to educate their children in science, truth and technology, and keep them away from extremists (on both sides) making sure they don’t get mind-raped into believing in the same mumbo jumbo voodoo belief systems that got their parents, grandparents and ancestors killed for the last couple of thousand years.

The Turks are muslims, but the government is more or less a secular democracy, one of very few in that region.

Why the Israelis would want to piss off (or on) the Turks is a mystery to me, but it could turn into an embarrasment for the USA in the future.
As the US did stretch the definitions for calling on a NATO operation earlier, how are they supposed to just shrug away the facts if a navy vessel from a NATO country comes under attack from a non-NATO country...?

If a Turkish patrol vessel is sunk by an air-raid in international waters, would it make a difference wether the planes was Israeli or Syrian?

Originally Posted by 84RFK

The Turks are muslims, but the government is more or less a secular democracy, one of very few in that region.

Why the Israelis would want to piss off (or on) the Turks is a mystery to me, but it could turn into an embarrasment for the USA in the future.
As the US did stretch the definitions for calling on a NATO operation earlier, how are they supposed to just shrug away the facts if a navy vessel from a NATO country comes under attack from a non-NATO country...?

If a Turkish patrol vessel is sunk by an air-raid in international waters, would it make a difference wether the planes was Israeli or Syrian?

Because in the world of diplomacy they have no choice but piss off the Turks, I think it was always an unrealistic expectation that Israel was going to apologise for the incident as in doing so it would create enormous problems for them further down the road.

An admission of wrong doing in this case would render the blockade illegitimate or at the very least unenforceable so I can understand the lack of desire to admit wrong doing here, I also think as I have said before this is a storm in a tea cup and in a few years will simply be swept under the rug by both sides as relations normalise but in the short term both sides are playing the political game.

Wait a minute. How come some of you are against Israel on this Turkish-Israel problem? Israel should not have to apologize for the death of 9 people who were attacking the Israeli commandos. If they do apologize, just like MontyB said, it would be them admitting that the blockade is wrong. I read that Israel said they will intercept the "humantarian" ship anyways. The crew of the ship should have known this anyways and been more compliant with the commandos. Anyways, they killed like 2-3 commandos. I do agree that the force Israel projected was a little extreme. They could have just had a patrol boat steer them to the designated port.

Education is the only way things can decrease in hostility over there. The west must realize, we put them there, it would be wrong to take it away only because some group claims it as well. Establishing a Palastinian state would be beneficial, but there is no promise that them having their own country would decrease terrorist activity.


Here is something to think of. If you were a police officer helping another officer inspect a car of someone who seemed suspicious and got attacked by a group of people who wanted to help him/her, killing your buddy so you shoot 2 of them to fight them off; would you apologize?

Don't even say you would please, because that would be BS. That is you admitting that you were in the wrong for pulling the trigger when your life was on the line. You shouldn't apologize, but show some sympathy for the loss of life without apologizing imo.

After that, the turks happen to be so insulted and unreasonable that they decide to escalate things by escorting ships with gunboats (can be taken as a form of threat or muscle showing). Please tell me if this is a correct response to 9 lives being lost? I hope the U.S stands firm on Israel's side if Turkey decides to escalate this even more. Turkey is making this out to be more than necessary and will cause more destablization in the Middle-East. If this happened to a U.S humanitarian ship, I would still stand firm with Israel.

Originally Posted by benaakatz

If it was up to you how would you put it to rest?

genocide is frowned upon as a solution

Even if it's peaceful genocide? I swear.... I will equally wipe out both sides with the use of NBC weapons.

How about we simply move all involved parties out of the area and turn the Holy Lands into a museum that folks can only visit?


Okay.... all joking aside. There isn't an answer to this problem that would appease either party equally. Either the Israelis are happy or the Arabs are happy.... politically I'm in favor of supporting the Israelis as long as the actions they take are in self defense.

If Egypt or Syria wants to invade Israel and the Israelis kick arse and take names then I see no issue in them holding captured territories.

Originally Posted by RayManKiller3

Wait a minute. How come some of you are against Israel on this Turkish-Israel problem? Israel should not have to apologize for the death of 9 people who were attacking the Israeli commandos.

In the eyes of virtually all of the international community with the noted exceptions of USA and Israel, the "commandos were commiting and act of state sponsored Piracy on the high seas, therefore those aboard the ship were fully within their rights to defend themselves with lethal force if need be.

Even if the ship had entered the Israeli exclusion zone, the embargo is not recognised as legitimate by almost all seagoing nations.

Originally Posted by benaakatz

If it was up to you how would you put it to rest?

genocide is frowned upon as a solution

I am convinced that only through politics and diplomacy, and not through violence and force, can a peaceful and just solution be achieved. The following parameters are paramount:

Full respect and implementation for international law which, through the resolutions of the United Nations, has allowed for the birth of the State of Israel and called for the establishment of the State of Palestine.

Respect for and implementation of the peace accords signed since 1993 which permitted the creation of the Palestinian Authority;

Support for the “Two States for Two Peoples” solution with the creation of an independent, viable and sovereign Palestinian State based on the boundaries preceding the 1967 war – including East Jerusalem, an end to all forms of violence, and security for all. Or one democratic state for all rather than the proposed “Two State Solution”

A balanced and mutually agreed-upon solution to the Palestinian Refugee problem.

And I urges the international community and its institutions to actively pursue, together with the Palestinian and Israeli constituencies, the above-mentioned objectives, in an effort to ensure the dignity, liberty and security of both nations.

Originally Posted by senojekips

In the eyes of virtually all of the international community with the noted exceptions of USA and Israel, the "commandos were commiting and act of state sponsored Piracy on the high seas, therefore those aboard the ship were fully within their rights to defend themselves with lethal force if need be.

Even if the ship had entered the Israeli exclusion zone, the embargo is not recognised as legitimate by almost all seagoing nations.

Since they had the right to defend themselves with lethal force, I guess they also had the right to be shot now didn't they? They could have just made it a peaceful ending by not resisting the commandos. There is a difference between getting boarded by actual pirates and a nation; you can not win against the second without equal weapons.

Sure they had the right to defend themselves, but so do all criminals even if they were guilty. Doesn't make it truely correct to do though. I think Israeli troops responded in kind, I would have done the same thing in that given situation.

Considering the U.N has stated that the blockade was legitimate I wonder what nations could possibly not believe it as legitimate. If you have an enemy firing rockets into your nation would you not try everything exception of extreme things to stop them? It is not like Israel is trying to starve them, the Palestinians make it worse for themselves by not rejecting Hamas and any other terrorist group claiming to be for them. If the Palestinians do that at the very least, then maybe would it be possible for things to stabalize a little.

Originally Posted by RayManKiller3

Since they had the right to defend themselves with lethal force, I guess they also had the right to be shot now didn't they?

No,... The "commandos" were committing an illegal act, and believe it or not, that is not a mitigating circumstance. Just the same as you have the right to use lethal force in defending your home if attacked by an armed intruder but he has no "right" to shoot you in defence because he is the aggressor.

I dunno what world you live in, but I know of no place (not even gun happy USA) where criminals have the "right" to kill people to facilitate a crime. That's why the death rows in most of your prisons are so well stocked and the population is growing.

In any case, I wouldn't quote the UN if I were you, as they also said that any invasion of Iraq would be illegal, yet the US went ahead. The simple fact is, that the UN does not make, or it seems even wish to understand or abide by International law. Remember it was the UN who originally made the decision to give Palestine to the Jewish people, this was also a decision without precedent or any just reason which has bought us to where we are today.

Even David ben Gurion admitted that Palestine was stolen from it's legitimate owners, and therefore the whole idea is built upon illegal premise.

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them?" ---etc. Source: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

They know it and so do we, so it is merely a matter of time,...

1.The transplanted Jews must be sent back to their original abodes. The exiled Palestinians must be brought back to their hearth and home. And a modern State of Palestine established.

2. In the event the Jews cannot get back to their original countries, land must be purchased in Texas, Australia or elsewhere to settle them. I am mentioning Texas and Australia because these have been mentioned in the media.

3. Another solution would be to break up Israel and distribute parts to Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. An exodus of Jews will occur. They should be settled in Texas, Australia,etc.