Iraq wants to buy 36 U.S. F-16 fighters. Older models can be had for under $50 million each, while the latest versions go for about $75 million. It would take at least five years to train Iraqi pilots and ground crews to effectively use and maintain such aircraft. Even then, there will probably be problems. The historical experience has been that, in Arab countries, buying such high tech warplanes, run into personnel problems. Pilots are often selected more for their loyalty to the government, than for their flying skills. Ground crew jobs pay well, and are sometimes given out at gifts to loyal supporters of whoever is running the government at the moment. As a result, the high-tech aircraft tend to be flown by substandard pilots, and not available for operations (because of poor maintenance) as much as in Western air forces.

The U.S. government has to approve this purchase which, given the recession going on in the United States, may be difficult to turn down.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htp.../20080907.aspx

I think high end Vipers are in the $85/90 mil range with goodies.

In generalArab or Middle East country/air force don't maintain and services their Viper/Eagles/Hornets, without some help. It would be interesting forming a list of known Russian or former Eastern Block countries that have help keep Russian made gear flying, in the same general region?

Only two possibles comes to mind and that's Pakistan and Turkey. Pakistan's trainers have flown UAE Mirage 2000-5/9 fighter and American made Block-60 Vipers, and service most of UAE air force in general. They service Saudi's aircraft not sure if they work on F-15s or not. They service Kuwaits Mirage F1 but not sure about the Hornets, this guy on this other forum told me they do but don't fly them. I can't confirm it either way maybe somebody here knows?

I think Turkey soon if not already because of the production rights sold to them for upgrading F-16s. Not sure if there kits and only parts or sections are built in Turkey but one must assume in time they will be.

I read that Pakistan's Navy is invloved in training Sudan's navy so maybe their invloved in their AF as well. Sudan does have a few Chinese built aircraft J-7s I think and Q-5s, Pakistan know the Chinese types. Learning about Sudan's few Mig-29s would be useful since India flies that type.

If it is true that Pakistan pilots had Frances best Mirage 2000-5 and 9, the two seat strike type and Block-60 with the first production ASEA radar in Pakistan, did the Chinese get to look under the hood?

Does anybody know if Pakistan might have help with Iran's F-5 fleet?

I think a lot of Middle Eastern countries look for US contractors to help with maintenance.

Iraq had never had problems maintaining their air force before the 1991 sanctions kicked in, Iraqis, Iranians, and Egyptians are very adaptive and independent people, they are not like the useless Gulf countries like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, and Kuwait. Iraqi at its height maintained one of the largest air forces in the world, and had very skilled pilots from the Iran-Iraq war. Iran is currently reverse engineering many of the parts needed to maintain its air force and currently building their own aircrafts based on American and Russian designs with sanctions in effect which is a testament to their ingenuity.

I for one think that it will be a mistake for the Iraqis to buy the F-16s because that will be another way for the Americans to have control of their military and if Iraqis act in a way that doesn't serve America's interests all America has to do is refuse parts and services like they did to Chavez of Venezuela. It will also be better for Iraqis to buy Russian equipment in which they are accustomed to and would be easier for them to maintain and fly. Russia has comparable planes available that are on par with the F-16 such as the SU-27s and MIG-29s, and planes that far outperform the F-16s such as the MIG-30, MIG-35, SU-35 and such.

Well, it would stand to reason that they would buy Russian planes, after all any of their existing aircrew and groundcrew are adapted to those. However, I very much doubt the US would allow such a deal to go through, and with the US right now in military controll, its impossible for the Iraqis to do much about that.

UnitedSomalia

Iraq had never had problems maintaining their air force before the 1991 sanctions kicked in, Iraqis, Iranians, and Egyptians are very adaptive and independent people,

I don’t agree with you on that and I’ll try to explain why
Iraq – I was never impressed with them in general that had more assets to work with then Iran but could never put them away. Their aircraft were the lesser export models Mig-21, Mig-23, Mig-25, and a few Mig-29, most of the big Mig-29 order was canceled and MIG sold off the frames as upgrades and replacements over years. All of these aircraft are short ranged, poor radar, older cockpit layouts, average to poor missiles, short engine life’s, Iraq should have bought more F1 Mirages they were the Iraqi’s favorite. I once heard a rumor that France almost had a large Mirage 2000 order but the 91 war broke out.

they are not like the useless Gulf countries like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, and Kuwait.

I kind of agree with you on these countries Pakistan provides a lot of training and support for Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Kuwait, not sure about Bahrain.

Iraqi at its height maintained one of the largest air forces in the world, and had very skilled pilots from the Iran-Iraq war.

Very skill would apply they were effective and eight years of fighting showed they weren’t.

Iran is currently reverse engineering many of the parts needed to maintain its air force and currently building their own aircrafts based on American and Russian designs with sanctions in effect which is a testament to their ingenuity.

Twenty-five old F-5 design paste on aircraft? Basically useless frame just like the F-14s that they manage to get up to fly in those Photoshop flights for the press. If one of the reasons the USN dropped them was maintenance how useful would 30 year old early model Iranian Tomcat could be, really. Pull some heavy Gs and go in afterburners a few times and the Iranian pilots will be hoping the ejection handles still work.
A testament on how they back themselves into a corner and let there air force drop to all time low in modern equipment. Basically a small European NATO country with tanker support to win against Irans AF. Most of Iran's aircraft couldn't run three combat sorties in a row most likely.

I for one think that it will be a mistake for the Iraqis to buy the F-16s because that will be another way for the Americans to have control of their military and if Iraqis act in a way that doesn't serve America's interests all America has to do is refuse parts and services like they did to Chavez of Venezuela.

With any government there is a chance that bans, etc, if you mess with the supplier. The US and European Oil & Gas companies are very interested in Iraq’s oil so once Iraq gets the outsiders out and groups & people stop killing each other many countries and not just the US will be falling over themselves to sell them fighter and other equipment. This means they wouldn’t want to lose a good oil rich customer. There be kissing there ass like Saudi Arabia.
Chavez is his own worst enemy in ways and he screwing over his own country daily you make it sound like he’s a good world leader or something. Oil production is down, takes away basic rights, government control everything his laws not the Venezuelan Congress or people vote, his way of no way, and you think he good?

It will also be better for Iraqis to buy Russian equipment in which they are accustomed to and would be easier for them to maintain and fly.

The same Russia made equipment that didn’t help Iraq against half trained Iranians for eight years? There is an Iraqi Mig-25 pilot on this other forum I’m in I’ll PM him and ask him a few questions. He did mention once that the Iraqis like the Mig-21 much better than the Mig-23s. Why buy worthless crap that suck when it flying and not even made anymore.

Russia has comparable planes available that are on par with the F-16 such as the SU-27s and MIG-29s, and planes that far outperform the F-16s such as the MIG-30, MIG-35, SU-35 and such

Su-27 – Good platform but a dated designed really and Russia hasn’t even upgrade (2) regiments for themselves in like 10 years. Most of Russia’s Su-27s can’t even fire their best radar guided missile the AA-12? You rather be in a modern F-16.
Mig-29 – One of my favorites better rate of climb then a F-15C and good thrust, but built by MIG who’s taking four almost five years to delivered India’s Mig-29K (20) aircraft. A underrated aircraft with a poor record but still you rather be in a modern F-16. Russia’s Fulcrums or Flankers aren’t even at a Block-40 Vipers standard from 1991. How many Iraqi pilots trained in the late 80s would even be around or be useful in 2008? Iraq would be starting new anyway and Iraq got the money why buy a car without door handles.
Mig-35 – Vaporware not even produced the one that's flying is a Mig-29M with Mig-35 painted on it. All the new advance equipment, ASEA radar, warning devices, etc not built nor are producers lined up to even make the fancy equipment for it. Without an export order real production lines won't even be built.
You mention Mig-30 no such thing you meant Su-30 type most likely. A better overall platform because it has Israeli, BAE, South African, French, sub-systems in them, the goodies Russia just doesn’t make themselves well or not at all.
Su-35 – five testing aircraft made no real proof of the weapons systems, or radar, or newer engines that last a whooping 4,000 hours like American standards in 1982. Also the biggest target on the battle field not something I want to be in modern combat. Modern not like 10,000 row boats around a Russian Frigate.
American jet engines last for 10,000 hours compared to Russian 2,000 hours. The new Russian types that claim to go to 4,000 haven’t been made / sold yet to follow up this claim. Buying an F-16 is a first class working tested proven product compared anything Russian that a rich oil producing country could buy. Any western type is a better investment for Iraq or there end up like Iran old and useless air force in eight years.
Sorry for the long post

actually that was a very good post, well done.

I think there is definetly a problem with assesing Russian hardware because it hardly saw combat in Russian hands against western countries(thank god). The last time Russian aircraft flew against western airforces(correct me if im wrong) was in the early 70s when they flew ot of Egypt. This was Mig-21 flown by Russians vs Mirage IIIs and F-4s flown by Israelis. The result was 5-0 to the Israelis, although they were outnoumbered. It was very long ago, but still an intresting thing to think about.

Well Russian aircraft are supposed to outnumber their enemy. Part of their doctrine actually I believe.

Well Russian aircraft are supposed to outnumber their enemy. Part of their doctrine actually I believe.

Well, that may be true, but there is a small problem. None of Russias clients can efford to outnoumber their enemy...The Syrians and Egyptians both paid the price for using russian doctrine of mass atacks when they had nothing close to the right ammount of equippment to do it. Im talking about land and air.

So either way... Buy American. Buy AMRAAM.