Originally Posted by Ted

Hold on Gladius... who's the one spreading "democracy" in that region by force? What if your democracy experiment gives rise to something like that too? Will you blaim Europe again?
Or is that your definition of democracy that if you don't like what you see, you send in the military?

No, Ted.
1.Democracy is not merely "holding elections". Democracy is a lot more: Freedom of press, of opinion, of religion, human rights, fair trial in court and many more. That's why State Secretary Condoleeza Rice stresses so much the importance of giving birth to democracy from the bottom (bottom-up), and trying so hard to spread common and shared values among the population. And no, elections were probably semi-democratic in Palestine, but the Palestinian society is NOT a democratic one, as everybody knows. If the Palestinians lived in a free and democratic society they would have not elected Hamas. As for the blame Europe part of your comment, do not forget that up to a few months ago Europe had been keeping funding Hamas. We used to send them funds by the millions, while the US never did. Guess who persuaded the rest of the Union into cutting aid to Hamas and throwing them into our black list? Yes, our current conservative government when it was holding the presidency of the European Union.
2.To me there was little practical difference between Hamas and al Fatah.

Hey Doc S. nice to see you again!! I'm willing to cling to the tiniest shred of hope that the Democratic System will be stronger than the bigotry and hatred that Hamas has represented for so very long. With all this new responsibility and without having the option of ignoring the very existence of Israel, Hamas is forced to adapt. Maybe, just maybe Hamas will change itself into something better. I find this highly unlikely, but at least its a possibility. One very big positive is that Hamas in control of Palestine does not equate to "A World Power to be Reckoned With" nor "Another Nazi Germany." Palestine will not have the means to wield that sort of global power for several generations (if ever), barring something unbelievably unexpected like an Monster Meteor that only kills non-Palestinians.

And no, elections were probably semi-democratic in Palestine, but the Palestinian society is NOT a democratic one, as everybody knows. If the Palestinians lived in a free and democratic society they would have not elected Hamas.

But IG, this is so very hypothetical. You instate a form of democracy and when you don't like the result you claim it isn't true democracy. I bet that if a very Israel oriented government would have emerged you would claim that true democracy had done it's job!
And saying that they don't have true democracy is so condescending! Just because you don't like the result can only mean one thing: they don't know what they are doing!

I think that the Palestinian People have gotten themselves into the habit of listening to groups like the Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Fatah, etc. I think that the results of the elections should come as no surprise, but I also believe that its bad news. The trouble now is that because this was the most Democratic thing to happen to the Palestinian people to date, it has to be accepted by Israel and the West until they do something irresponsible. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the utterly stupid part. Hamas has been "irresponsible" since its creation.

Originally Posted by Ted

But IG, this is so very hypothetical. You instate a form of democracy and when you don't like the result you claim it isn't true democracy. I bet that if a very Israel oriented government would have emerged you would claim that true democracy had done it's job!
And saying that they don't have true democracy is so condescending! Just because you don't like the result can only mean one thing: they don't know what they are doing!

You're wrong. Answer this: Do Palestinians have a free society where if you criticize their political leader you are protected by a detailed set of laws laid out by Congressmen? No, unless they live within Israel.
Do Palestinians have a fair and due process of law when they get trialed? No, unless they live within Israel.
Can a Palestinian write what he thinks on a publicly published newspaper, saying anything (e.g. the Palestinian Authority sucks because they're just terrorists and this and that) and nobody will cause him trouble? No, unless he lives within Israel.
Can a Palestinian go to school wearing a kippah, as a sign of friendship with Israel? No, they can't, although many Jewish kids wear kefiahs in Israel.
Can a Palestinian teacher teach his kids that the Jews are good guys and the Nazis and the terrorists who kill civilians on buses are rotten bastards? No he could never do that.
Do you really think a Palestinian could sue a minister from any Fatah government or publicly denounce the leaders' corruption and expect to enjoy real justice? No, never. Remember Fatah has always systematically jailed or eliminate Palestinian journalists who were not aligned with Arafat and did not cherish him.
Are minorities respected in the Palestinian society? No, because they do not have any minority. They would not respect a Jewish minority while Israel is home to more than one million Arabs with Israeli passport. And please note that respect for minorities is a true aspect of any democracy.

I'm not saying elections were rigged, I'm just saying elections do not mean democratic society altogether, in spite of their major importance. And this is precisely the case of Palestine. Palestine is not even a State, how can they be democratic? They don't even have control over their own police or territory.

This is why the fact that Hamas won elections does not change my view on democracy in any way. My faith in the terrific effects of democracy is unrivaled an stronger than ever.
Anyways I'm -paradoxically- moderately optimistic about what will come next.

Have you read what The Telegraph says?

"Arab leaders - and not a few Europeans - will be muttering to the Americans: "We told you so. Allowing the ordinary Muslims to vote freely is a bad idea."
Yet this would be the wrong lesson to draw. The popularity of political Islam reflects the bankruptcy of the political order that has gone before. When the state fails, as it has done across the Middle East since the end of the colonial era, then Muslims instinctively turn to the mosque.
So the first lesson has to be a gradual reform of autocratic Arab states, risky as that may seem.

With Arafat, or even his successor, Mahmoud Abbas, there has always been a debate over whether the Palestinian Authority was unable, or merely unwilling, to stop the violence. Palestinian leaders have turned weakness into a diplomatic art-form, telling Israel and the West they needed more concessions in order to have the authority to take on Hamas. With the terrorists in office, there should be no such ambiguity. When the suicide bombs go off, the address for protests will be obvious: the office of the Palestinian prime minister".

And then you sarcastically ask Gladius: "What if your democracy experiment gives rise to something like that too?", showing that you do not have any "democracy experiment" up your sleeve, and you couldn't care less about that weird concept. Are you somewhat adverse to democracy yourself?
Last. You said: "Just because you don't like the result can only mean one thing: they don't know what they are doing!"... I never said they don't know, they do very well.

Originally Posted by phoenix80

Correct

Hamas and the Mullahs of Iran are both terrorists by nature and allies!

I wouldnt say they are allies as the Persians and Arabs (Hamas) have been tradition enemies for centuries, but lets say they are working toward a common goal...

Well, one positive would be that since Hamas is more or less forced to have a dialogue with Israel, it is perfectly reasonable for Israel to request that the Palestinian Authority do more to stop Hamas from attacking Israelis. Afterall, the Palestinian Authority is Hamas. Kindof removes alot of the excuses.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

I wouldnt say they are allies as the Persians and Arabs (Hamas) have been tradition enemies for centuries, but lets say they are working toward a common goal...

From dictionary.com: "ally"= One in helpful association with another.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

I wouldnt say they are allies as the Persians and Arabs (Hamas) have been tradition enemies for centuries, but lets say they are working toward a common goal...

Arab-Israeli conflict has nothing to do with Persian (Iranian) people and the government in Iran today is not the legitimate representative of the Iranian people for sure.

Yes right I was talking about the government too. The government of Iran is not the legitimate representative of the Iranian people.