Originally Posted by MontyB

However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

It's really too bad because there are cases (like Hamas and Iran calling for the destruction of the Jewist state) but there are people throw it out way too often. "How bout them jets?" "Just a bunch of Nazi's if you ask me." "WTF!?" "Go Giants!"

Monty-B that's real cute. But this is a forum of politics and millitary history.

My reference to hitler was not some cute teenager going "omg hiter" it was a serious historical statement. Democracy does not automatically result in the creation of "good" governments. The point I was making and that Bones understood was that Hitler came to power through democracy. You say that "well it was the good will of the people so bad can't come of it" yet you completely ignore the historical facts that the worst actions have come from the good intentions of people. Hitler was one of them. Do you really think Germans in the late 1930s where evil commic book supervillians that ellected a supreme evil ruler to spread thier evil doctorine over the world? They all laughed "mwuhahahah" too while they ate their sausages made from jew-meat too right? No, and that's what I'm trying to teach you.

However, if you wish to cover your ears and scream "I'M NOT LISTENING I'M NOT LISTENING" then there's nothing that I can do. But throwing out some cute internet lingo doesn't go near debassing my historically proven point.

The reason alot of left-wingers, or left-leanings idealist, and or pacifist like to get rid, or ignore, "the Hilter factor", (this includes making up stupid stuff like saying thread is over when someone mentions Hiltler) is because alot of times this is a perferct REAL world example which absolutely flies in the face of what they believe.

One of these beliefs is, if you act peacefully and show goodwill towards a country, no matter how that country acts or behaves, you will get peace back. Another of which is pre-emitive strikes are bad, among others. Hilter disproved these, but they don't want to listen to this, so they forget about this, and when you bring it up they have little or no more logic to counter this.

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

Monty-B that's real cute. But this is a forum of politics and millitary history.

My reference to hitler was not some cute teenager going "omg hiter" it was a serious historical statement. Democracy does not automatically result in the creation of "good" governments. The point I was making and that Bones understood was that Hitler came to power through democracy. You say that "well it was the good will of the people so bad can't come of it" yet you completely ignore the historical facts that the worst actions have come from the good intentions of people. Hitler was one of them. Do you really think Germans in the late 1930s where evil commic book supervillians that ellected a supreme evil ruler to spread thier evil doctorine over the world? They all laughed "mwuhahahah" too while they ate their sausages made from jew-meat too right? No, and that's what I'm trying to teach you.

However, if you wish to cover your ears and scream "I'M NOT LISTENING I'M NOT LISTENING" then there's nothing that I can do. But throwing out some cute internet lingo doesn't go near debassing my historically proven point.

That has little to do with it, I could sit here and dream up similarities between the GWB and Hitler or Israel and Nazi Germany hell if I twist hard enough I can make the pope Gengis Kahn incarnate but the just as in your case the fact would remain that these are different times, circumstances and there is no relationship.
Hence the reason the Usenet create Godwins law because if you have to sink to emotive arguements you never really had one in the first place.

Originally Posted by gladius

The reason alot of left-wingers, or left-leanings idealist, and or pacifist like to get rid, or ignore, "the Hilter factor", (this includes making up stupid stuff like saying thread is over when someone mentions Hiltler) is because alot of times this is a perferct REAL world example which absolutely flies in the face of what they believe.

One of these beliefs is, if you act peacefully and show goodwill towards a country, no matter how that country acts or behaves, you will get peace back. Another of which is pre-emitive strikes are bad, among others. Hilter disproved these, but they don't want to listen to this, so they forget about this, and when you bring it up they have little or no more logic to counter this.

Yes well a monocular view may lead to that belief but it is becoming apparent that if you cant come up with an argument we can always fall back on the leftist/liberal accusations. Seriously your entire post is pure guess work and supposition as to what so called "left wingers" think and quite frankly I am not sure you could spot a "liberal" if you tripped over one in the dark.

Originally Posted by Damien435

It's really too bad because there are cases (like Hamas and Iran calling for the destruction of the Jewist state) but there are people throw it out way too often. "How bout them jets?" "Just a bunch of Nazi's if you ask me." "WTF!?" "Go Giants!"

The good news is that it isnt a forum rule its more an etiquette thing and even more good news is that no matter what people around here may say neither Hamas nor the Iranians have the capacity to touch Israel in any serious way without destroying themselves in the process and most rational people realise that the leadership of the two groups are not stupid enough to wipe themselves out.

Democracy does not automatically result in the creation of "good" governments. The point I was making and that Bones understood was that Hitler came to power through democracy

I have been reading some incredible stuff on this thread. But IMO it boils down to this:

The US supports Israel, no matter what. Israeli "apartheid", a "Berlin" wall, cutting of power, preventing to go to work... it is all a means to an end. Criticise this and you are an instant Palestinian. The Netherlands have always supported Israel, but to some of you we don't. Simply because we don't say that support equals turning a blind eye to the things they do.

Secondly; if I understand some of the posters correct, they say: democracy is good, as long as it is our variant. So you tell them they can vote, but if they vote something you don't like..... And what do you suggest now? Send in the military to exterminate the ones who voted Hamas? What you are suggesting isn't democracy; it is tellling somebody what they should and should not do.

The historical card is a neat trick. Sure Hitler was voted and turned out to be a bloody monster. So now you say it will happen again automatically. If you want to avoid this, then don't support democracy. If you do support democracy you have to accept this as a possibility.

Originally Posted by MontyB

That has little to do with it, I could sit here and dream up similarities between the GWB and Hitler or Israel and Nazi Germany hell if I twist hard enough I can make the pope Gengis Kahn incarnate but the just as in your case the fact would remain that these are different times, circumstances and there is no relationship.
Hence the reason the Usenet create Godwins law because if you have to sink to emotive arguements you never really had one in the first place.

Well it is good then, that I speak to a greater audiance than you alone. I believe any unbiased observer can see that my argument is purely intellectual and you have to create a straw man out of it to try and wiggle around the gaping whole in your "well the people wanted something good some hamas must be good" argument.

Ted - you're being just as rediculous as our boy MontyB. I didn't say "omg palestine=hitler omg wtf". I am trying to show any person who will just take the time to let the synapses between brain cells fire off for a moment, that democracy does not equal a great government. Those that think so are as blind idealogues as you and MontyB appear to be in this thread. The point is, if I can make this any clearer. That just because voters INTEND for something good to happen by voting for Hamas doesn't mean that Hamas is good.

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

Well it is good then, that I speak to a greater audiance than you alone. I believe any unbiased observer can see that my argument is purely intellectual and you have to create a straw man out of it to try and wiggle around the gaping whole in your "well the people wanted something good some hamas must be good" argument.

Ted - you're being just as rediculous as our boy MontyB. I didn't say "omg palestine=hitler omg wtf". I am trying to show any person who will just take the time to let the synapses between brain cells fire off for a moment, that democracy does not equal a great government. Those that think so are as blind idealogues as you and MontyB appear to be in this thread. The point is, if I can make this any clearer. That just because voters INTEND for something good to happen by voting for Hamas doesn't mean that Hamas is good.

You know the funny thing if you swap my name with yours we have exactly the same opinion of each others views.

Well it is good then, that I speak to a greater audiance than you alone. I believe any unbiased observer can see that my argument is purely intellectual and you have to create a straw man out of it to try and wiggle around the gaping whole in what you previously stated.

But WD, I agree with MontyB. I am, however not unbaised on this subject either... But my intellectual view is that historical events are non-repetitive. The systematics behind certain motives might be, but the end results are not. To say that Munich "38 is about the same as Ramallah "06, is stepping over many many unknown variables of contemporary history.
The only similarity is that someone unwanted came to power via a democratic route. The difference is that Hitler wasn't unwanted when he was elected in "33 by the US.

Why are all people and news agencys talking about a surprising result of this election? For me it was obvious first time they mentioned that Hamas was going to run for government, I find all talks about surprise frekking hilarious!


I think the world need to look beyond all BS and begin see the reality for what it is and stop talking about Europeans having a identity crisis that they are pounding us with on CNN. Europe has no identity crisis, they who comes to Europe has it because the majority of them refuses to assimilate to a western lifestyle and nothing are done to make that happen, the politicians have just got their first wake up call and more are to come, Belgium, France, Australia, heck that is nothing if we are going to talk identity crisis. People need to choose what kind of world they want to live in to be honest. Do they want to live in a theocratic Hamas or Iranian kind of socity ruled by the Koran or do they want to live in a western socity ruled by law and order where women are allowed to show their face or not?

There is a plan behind everything and I stand fast when it comes to the author and Nobel Price Winner VS Naipau and his book Beyond Belife read it get educated, and stop accepting this - you the Europeans and Westerners - it is your fault band-wagon BS they are running. Time to take a step back, take a good look at the chess board and realize that something is frekking wrong with this picture, and that you arent to be blamed for the stupidity, stupidity! of our world leaders.

You cant be held liable for the fact that a small majority think everything is pink and dandy can you? You cant be liable for the fact that almost everything you see and hear on TV are BS can you? You cant be held responsible for the fact that 30-50% of the people in the west dont give a damn and dont vote can you? Time for all to smell the dead roses and get up from those god damn dreamlands they are living in and recognize that we ladies and gentlemen are standing right on the threshold to our own cultures extermination from the inside outside in.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation far beyond anything that can be called moderate as Fatha was. They will probably help Iran to blow Israel from the face of this earth and then negotiations are going to take place. But not untill that, Mars 2006 will probably be the month when we all can wave bye bye to Israel if no imidiate actions are taken, by a western coalition of the same size as Gulf War 1 but this one all Western. Any nuthead can feel the smell of BS when it is burning. Close all borders, make a constiution that says that Islam is banned as a religion inside Europe, they who dont accept this well give them free tickets home then. Europe as the rest of the western world and culture are hold hostage without recognize that fact, and not the other way around. Europes Identity crisis? Frekking hilarious.


Hello guys Im back....

Doc.S

...that democracy does not equal a great government.

I concur with you on this WD. But I was just reacting to the common point of view that we should intervene right away, ingnoring the fact that it were the Palestinians who voted Hamas and not the Europeans. I just had my cage rattled by the statement that it is our fault and we are already with one foot in the grave.
But again: we agree that democracy does not equal good governance!