Originally Posted by Whispering Death

Bory is right. I'm not surprised when I think about it in the scheme of history. Hamas has been playing this game very well, they're much more than an al-quada-ish terrorist organization. They are more similar to the Nazi party in the weinmar era where they have a millitary wing but also do a lot of good for their community. So in that instance it isn't surprising at all.

What is surprising is when you step back and look at it in the context of current world state... it's completely surprising that the people have elected a terrorist state!



gladius is responding to the fact that "liberal" minded nations have traditionally backed the Palestinians while America has backed Israel. So with the European backing they have now aided the creation of a terorrist state in effect.

I am seeing a trend here, Americans cant seem to separate a government from its people. Palestinians havent elected a terrorist state they have elected people they believe will do the best by THEM not Europe or Israel or the USA and for the record they dont see them as terrorists they see Hamas as a group standing up for them.

Lets try and look at this from an average Palestinians point of view (For right or wrong) they have grown up in what a little more than refugee camps they are taught to hate Israel and its followers because they see them as occupiers of "THEIR" (remember the for right or wrong bit at the start) land, a group enters the political race that has a record of fighting those they dislike and on top of that where they have been elected to office the towns are flourishing why wouldnt they elect Hamas?

Personally I dont care anymore who is right and who is wrong if it was my choice I would nuke the entire middle east and move on with life.

Originally Posted by MontyB

I am seeing a trend here, Americans cant seem to separate a government from its people. Palestinians havent elected a terrorist state they have elected people they believe will do the best by THEM not Europe or Israel or the USA and for the record they dont see them as terrorists they see Hamas as a group standing up for them.

Yeah yeah and the germans didn't ellect a genocidal dictator either.

The biggest problem that many people who are products of "liberal" societies have is that they judge things by their motivations, not results.

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

Yeah yeah and the germans didn't ellect a genocidal dictator either.

The biggest problem that many people who are products of "liberal" societies have is that they judge things by their motivations, not results.

Damn playing the Hitler card a bit early on this one arent we?

Originally Posted by MontyB

Damn playing the Hitler card a bit early on this one arent we?

I guess you have forgotten that Hitler came to power on the strength of one single vote. Hitler's platform was that those 'dirty Jews' were to blame for all of Germany's ills.

Hamas has played the very same race card to come to power - "The dirty Jews are to blame for the Palestinian people's problems".

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?

Originally Posted by Ted

Hold on Gladius... who's the one spreading "democracy" in that region by force? What if your democracy experiment gives rise to something like that too? Will you blaim Europe again?
Or is that your definition of democracy that if you don't like what you see, you send in the military?

I'm not blaming the democratic process, I'm all for that.

What I am blaming Europe for is being totaly anti-Israel and grossly pro-palestinian.

Their massive funding and favor for the Palestinians is what fuelled these organizations to go on and thrive in Palestine.

Had the Europeans have not done that, most of the Palestinians would have been disillutioned with thier own system which could provide them with he basic needs of government and would have been more willing to seek a peaceful solution with Israel in order to improve their lives. Instead their lives were kept up by an outside source (Europe) which went along with their current lifestyle which is to fight Israel.

I'm not against Europe supporting democracy. But regarding the kind of thinking that left-wing Europe engages, the people they should be supporting they rail against, and the ones they should watch out for they support. And now look what you get!

Why would European public oppinion be so strongly against the only true democracy in that region, and support people with shady agendas who have whose only tract record is terrorism. Its probably alot to do with left-wing idealism which Europe has emersed itself in which is proving time and time again to have no sound basis in reality. Its really stupid if you look at it, no wonder they are sealing their own doom.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Care to explain how Europe is responsible for palestinians voting in Hamas in what has so far been a legitamite election or is "European" now the "opps they didnt do what we wanted" word for the month in the right wing part of America?

You keep bad mouthing America, when the US tries to do the right thing from the begining, if it doesn't work out, then it doesn't. But this left-wing European thinking does the wrong thing from the begining, then all of a sudden they are shocked by the terrible results, ...what a surprise, no not really. Stuff like this should tell them maybe there is a flaw in their thinking.

The EU is the biggest money donator to the palestinians.

...here Bory said it best

Originally Posted by Bory

Actully one of the reasons Hamas was elected was because of the promises it made to help Palestine get back on its feet.

I was watching a thing on the newsa week ago, about this town in Palestine that had one of the First Hamas mayor. Within a a few months, unelepoyment was down to almost nil, the roads were being widened and paved, and construction had started on a new school and hospital had begun. Crime had gone down, due to a major crackdown on corruption, the mayor even cut power to his parents home becuase they were a day late in paying their bills. Nobody was exempt of the law.
With all these innovations, how could the people of Palestine not vote for Hamas.
However Hamas will be incharge of all officals matters in Palestine. It will be allowed to purchase weapons legally from other nations, it will be allowed to recruit anyone it pleases into the Army and the Militant wing of Hamas.
I see it as history repeating. I don't need to name the dictatorships that started out like this.

The money for those programs mentioned, it didn't pop out of thin air now did it? So there.

Personally I dont care anymore who is right and who is wrong if it was my choice I would nuke the entire middle east and move on with life.

Comeing from you, I think that was sarcasm.

Personally I dont care anymore who is right and who is wrong if it was my choice I would nuke the entire middle east and move on with life

Good thing you are not in charge of nukes then!

Who is Hamas appointing as Prime Minister ?, if you want a good idea of what the future holds, find out his opinions.

It really doesn't matter who the PM would be as much as who the leader of Hamas is... and honestly I can see the guy in my head but for the life of me I can't remember hardly any arab names! Just do a google search and you can find out all the anti-israel beliefs he holds, and he's really in charge. He assumed power becase Israel killed everyone above him through targeted assasinations. So this guy is the "nice" Hamas guy because Israel can't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt he's a terrorist.

Originally Posted by Rabs

Comeing from you, I think that was sarcasm.

Unfortunately it wasnt sarcasm I am of the opinion that it cant be fixed at best you can select one side or the other to back but either way you are backing A**holes just blow the place off the face of the earth and call it a draw.

Its the fruition of an over simplified Occams razor principle in that the The simplest explanation is usually the best.

Originally Posted by Chief Bones

I guess you have forgotten that Hitler came to power on the strength of one single vote. Hitler's platform was that those 'dirty Jews' were to blame for all of Germany's ills.

Hamas has played the very same race card to come to power - "The dirty Jews are to blame for the Palestinian people's problems".

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?

I think you missed my point, do a google on Godwin's Law oh what the hell...
Godwin's Law
[Usenet] “As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.” There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

http://www.answers.com/topic/godwin-s-law

Essentially it is possible to draw comparisons with any nation/leader and the Nazi's or Hitler therefore the comments can not be taken seriously.