perseus are you for real???

there are more things in this world than oil...

hmmm....
when we run out of oil i wonder what you are going to use as your scape goat for your demonizing explanations of why America is "really" trying to help some one out...

I'm not demonizing anything. I know why people helped Haiti. Because they care. Haiti, OTOH, typical third world cesspool that sucks up every bit of help given, then complains about not getting enough. Haiti stays third world because of greed and corruption.

I am not giving a dime to Haiti other then the taxes I pay. They have no idea how to run a society and expect big brother to come and bail them out every time. They have the nerve to complain because we were not there quick enough and when we show up in force they complain about us violating their sovereignty..... I am pretty pissed my taxes are paying for that shithole.

Screw you haters.
I donated a little.

Okay I'm going to chip in with my tuppence worth, 'cos this is getting very excitable.

The original part of the thread talked about a better way to ensure that aid got to people, not too sure as you have something like 35 different nationalities (and languages) chipping in, all with the best intentions, add to that a hostof NGO's, that each have their own specialised agenda. Then take into account that a 3rd world country has been shattered, what internal infrastructure, both physical, political and social has been degraded and you have the potential for a Keystone cops scenario - which is what we have, although instead of laughs people are dying.

If we're looking to point fingers, as we in the general public do, I would blame the UN. They are after all the lead agency, yes they lost people, but they had and have enough infrastructure in place to direct relief efforts and help to get Haiti back, instead of wringing their hands and hoping that someone else would take on the headache.

But if we're looking to blame someone for the state of Haiti, then I'll go along and hold the US accountable. It supported dictators and when it couldn't get its way it has marginalised the country through trade laws. But that is the past, the US is trying to do the right thing, as are many other countries in the world, at least for the next few weeks. But the cameras will leave, beacuase Mrs Miggins cat is going to be stuck up a tree, and attention will fade, and Haiti will still be a 3rd world country, only less of an illegal immigrant problem (not enough of them to worry about) and more of a drugs problem, because somebody has to fill that political and financial vacuum and drugs seem to be the only industry nimble enough to react to changing circumstances and sieze opportunities.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

For situations like these there won't be enough MPs to go around. As for the 300 thing... funny but I think those folks need to get their discipline in check.
The US Army must be real nice. If we pissed off our instructors, we'd spend the morning balancing on our two feet and the top of our heads and enjoy the afternoon duck walking and doing other equally painful sh*t all over the parade ground. Oh yeah, and your commanding officer will get a few new assh0les torn in him by the training unit's CO which means the fun and games aren't over when you return to base at the end of the instruction period.
If the task given to you is to keep a potentially hostile crowd at bay without provoking it and you provoke it, you have failed to carry out your orders satisfactorily.
You're a grunt? Well good for you. Glad to hear your guys wasted tax payer money fooling around when you guys should have been paying attention getting your crowd control knowledge squared away. The 21st century grunt has to be smart. If we want to just kill people, I have bad news, the Air Force can do that faster with fewer friendly casualties so you'd be out of a job.

>

That was a really cool story, thanks...

Lol it has nothing to do with discipline.... It has to do with muscle reflex and doctrine. Who in the **** said we werent paying attention or ****ing off? They were getting pissed because our opfor was walking out of the itterations with bloody noses from getting smoked in the faces with shields. You know what? They never broke our line and after a few turns they lost any will to keep going. We have a little thing called escalation of force. If they get in your face you push them, if they push you, you slam them. You are always a level of force above your adversary. If some dumbass comes up and pushes your shield or throws a rock you are ready to **** them up by doctrine alone...

No infantryman wants a hostile indvidual anywhere near him. You have a rifle, a side-arm, possibly some frags. You will be afraid they will try to finger **** your ****. You are trained to drop anything that threatens you period. With either bullets or with your firsts. So you expect these kind of troops to just put that mentality away for the day and pull it back out next week? Are you trackin? You don't just change **** up that has been pounded into your head for years. Thats why the Army has MP's..... Let me guess, I should be able to type up my own paperwork and fly my c-130 to my destination too right? Sorry, we aren't super studs like Korean troops.

Originally Posted by Hmmm

I'm not demonizing anything. I know why people helped Haiti. Because they care. Haiti, OTOH, typical third world cesspool that sucks up every bit of help given, then complains about not getting enough. Haiti stays third world because of greed and corruption.

my bad

i wasnt actually referring to you when i sed hmmm ( i said it do demonstrate my deep and meaningful thought on this issue).
i still am thinking deeply and meaningfully to figure out how on earth perseus got such a bizarre world view.
sorry for the mix up.

cheers mate

captiva...

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Hurricane Katrina hit in 2005. George W Bush was President since 2001.
There's no excuse.
If the toilets in a hospital are a mess, the President of the hospital is responsible. The fact that he doesn't go cleaning toilets himself is irrelevant.
The uncoordinated nature of all these different branches is ultimately the President's responsibility.
I'd say if all these agencies can't work together, I'd have them reorganized under one leadership and one agency.

1.) It is not the federal governments responsibility to provide anything other than what is stated in the Bill of Rights, it's amendments and the US Constitution, but it still does provide assistance.

2.) Combining multiple agencies into one begs the question of centralizing government and puts an effective "communist" spin on it.

3.) You mean Hospital Admin or at least that's what they are here, aside from that a Hospital Admin may be in-charge of the hospital, but "cleaning toilets" is the responsibility of either Maintenance Department Head or Custodial Department Head, and if neither department preforms it's jobs then action by the immediate Supervisor of Operations within the hospital is preformed.

See the President isn't like a King or Dictator, there are so many laws, so much paperwork and so much crap to go through it's unbelievable. The President is forbidden by Federal law to active Federal troops and send them into a state without permission from the Governor, and if the Governor isn't preforming their job, then then they need to GTFO.

National guard and military typically fall under temporary authority of FEMA, IIRC, and sometimes even the police will. Except in Colorado that is unconstitutional, and FEMA respects that, as technically while they are civilian government, they are military oriented, thus per state constitution all military falls under civilian authority, which then places the liability for inappropriate conduct by such forces on the shoulders of the civilian leaders, who do not have absolute authority.

This is a bit of a yes and a no, Military force must remain under military control, civilian authority may have no control over them, but that's the reason agencies and organizations have liaisons and we have an ICS.

Basically National Guard or Federal military personnel can't have a group leader that's a civilian, when the NG or Federal forces show up they bring their whole chain-of-command with them, and FEMA may not even be in-charge when the Guard arrives, a simple Fire Chief may be, but under ICS guidelines if he retains specialized training for the event then he is IC (Incident Commander), and there may be multiple IC's during an operation, due to multiple situations, one incharge of personnel preforming rescue operations, one in-charge of ensure security, one in-charge of ensuring gas, water, sewage, ect.. are off, one in-charge of triage, ect...

CAP/USAFAUX can not have any military personnel in control of our personnel or operations because we're civil personnel, but in return to this we can not have any non-CAP personnel in control because we're an auxiliary. The organization is in a unique placement to have access to DoD and DHS logistics and support but without going through FEMA, and we can operate independently of the Federal Government.

It all falls into the ICS (Incident Command System).

See CAP/USAFAUX can't move on a Federal/DOD mission unless directed by MCSS or AFRCC, but the organization can preform missions under the "Corporate Mission" label, but under this facet they lack support of DoD/DHS because it isn't a Federal mission, and lacks an actual AFRCC/MCSS mission number, but local units (i.e. a squadron or wing) may activate it's personnel within it's AO without either AFRCC/MCSS or SEMA/CEMA support or permission, because each unit is self sustainable and self contained in, but the operations, but the circumstances in which the unit is activated must be justifiable.

So in the long run CAP/USAFAUX's basic point of existence is to help augment and be a "force multiplier" to a state or communities assets and even usher in faster support of FEMA or the military.

The way ICS works is when a disaster strike whomever is on the scene first is the Incident Commander (so in a nut shell if the police show up at a fire first, the officer in-charge is IC until the Fire Department arrives, so the cops just secure a perimeter, setup an IC post and if any police are EMT trained preform basic triage and the officer relinquishes command the the Fire Chief but the officer may still remain an IC or a member of the ICT "Incident Command Team" as a IC or assistant IC whom is in-charge of perimeter security and investigation into the inccident) and until support arrives that person is the IC, unless he relinquishes command to another individual (for a reason such as sleep deprivation, to eat, or to assist in another operation), so as I said before a simple Fire Chief or Police Chief may be the Incident Commander for a while until someone on the SEMA/CEMA CoC calls up FEMA/DHS/AFRCC and requests support, takes a call from the Governor to get other states or Federal military support, has to do with states rights and ensuring Posse Comitatus is upheld.

Have you ever heard of the "switch"?
You have to be able to go from giving smiles and a hand shake to kill at a moment's notice.
Some of the best folks in the hurting business (master martial artists and gangsters) I've met are the most polite folks you can ever meet. They'll greet you with a smile, a handshake, have great manners but you know that if you crossed them, they'd kick your ass without hesitation or mercy.
It's very unfortunate that you, getting paid what you do when you are active, can't figure this out. Indonesian Marines who get paid a fraction of what you do seemed to understand this very well.
Incase you didn't realize, much of a grunt's work nowadays is very much like policework... policework in a very bad neighborhood but policework nonetheless. So instead of saying, "that's MP stuff, it's not my responsibility" how about acknowledging that this is one of the many aspects of your job? No, I don't expect you to fly a C-130. But if you had to, you'd better figure it out. If your rifle BN is the only American presence in town and you have to win hearts and minds by building a small hospital, teaching cleanliness classes, giving some kind of aid to those who need it etc., that is what you will do. You won't go to your platoon leader and tell him you're not a carpenter and d1ck around with saws and nails with the rest of your squad.
This is called common sense.
If foreign troops for any reason had to come to your town and gave smiles, handshakes and their junior officers asked the people (including you) what it is you guys needed the most, it is far less likely to provoke a violent response than say they drop in, make the heavy weapons visible, in sight, buttoned up behind fortification, wearing shades and staring down the locals. Giving handshakes and whatnot does not mean you're not ready for a fight.
If a fight does break out, you know these guys are hard core bad guys and not some locals you pissed off because you were being an idiot.
I understand that doing this in practice is very hard to do, especially if no interpreter is present, but the fact that you're not even familiar with this concept is quite shocking. You will never win hearts and minds that way. If you step on a person's dignity, they will kill you even if they are guaranteed certain death.

Originally Posted by Big_Z

That was a really cool story, thanks...

Lol it has nothing to do with discipline.... It has to do with muscle reflex and doctrine. Who in the **** said we werent paying attention or ****ing off? They were getting pissed because our opfor was walking out of the itterations with bloody noses from getting smoked in the faces with shields. You know what? They never broke our line and after a few turns they lost any will to keep going. We have a little thing called escalation of force. If they get in your face you push them, if they push you, you slam them. You are always a level of force above your adversary. If some dumbass comes up and pushes your shield or throws a rock you are ready to **** them up by doctrine alone...

No infantryman wants a hostile indvidual anywhere near him. You have a rifle, a side-arm, possibly some frags. You will be afraid they will try to finger **** your ****. You are trained to drop anything that threatens you period. With either bullets or with your firsts. So you expect these kind of troops to just put that mentality away for the day and pull it back out next week? Are you trackin? You don't just change **** up that has been pounded into your head for years. Thats why the Army has MP's..... Let me guess, I should be able to type up my own paperwork and fly my c-130 to my destination too right? Sorry, we aren't super studs like Korean troops.

Originally Posted by FO Seaman

See the President isn't like a King or Dictator,

WOW. Thank you so much. And all this time I thought the elections were some kind of dog and pony show.
So a President can't make a single angry phone call? No wonder nothing ever gets done.