I was listening to the BBC news and a story came on about all the murders in London: apparently there is a real gang mentality amongst the kiddies and the BBC said
the murders where being blamed on rap music, etc .. with close to 100 murders in the last
18 months. Interesting enough they are all killing each other with knives and it was reported that many kids and adults all carry knives to protect themselves.
and that knife crimes where on the increase. So there you have it. Banning guns does not stop murders

They even had a "Knife Amnesty Program" where everyone turned in there evil knives
but it had no effect.... sound familiar?

parents are buying body armor for the kids ....
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1552956.ece


news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6464853.stm



oh yeah and gun crime up too since ban:


www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2317307.ece

And yet the official figures say differently.

Crime in England and Wales 2006/07

Offences involving firearms

Provisional statistics are available for police recorded crimes in 2006/07 involving firearms other than air weapons (referred to as ‘firearm offences’ in the remainder of this section).

• Firearms are taken to be involved in an incident if they are fired, used as a blunt instrument against a person, or used in a threat. Most offences involving a firearm are violent crimes and more than half (55%) occurred in just three metropolitan forces: London, Greater Manchester and the West Midlands.
• In 2006/07 there were a provisional 9,608 firearm offences recorded in England and Wales, a 13% decrease on 2005/06, and the lowest number recorded since 2000/01.
• There was a significant increase in the number of firearm offences recorded between 1998/99 and 2001/02, though figures may have been partially influenced by some forces implementing the principles of the National Crime Recording Standard prior to its national introduction on 1 April 2002.
• The increases have slowed since 2001/02, and the 2006/07 fall is the first since 1997/98.
• 3% of most serious offences of violence against the person (other than homicide) involved firearms in 2006/07, down from 4% in 2005/06. In terms of numbers of offences, there was a 16% fall from 760 to 635 offences.
• Less than half of 1% (0.4%) of other violence against the person offences involved firearms in 2006/07 the 3,690 offences recorded representing a 22% decrease from 2005/06.
• Firearms were used in 58 homicides, 9 offences (or 18%) more than the 49 recorded in 2005/06. In addition, 3 homicides involving the use of air weapons were recorded in 2006/07, making a total of 61 firearms homicides (including air weapons) for the period.
• There were 3,891 firearm robberies in 2006/07, a 4% decrease from the previous year. Firearms were used in just under 4% (3.8%) of all robbery offences recorded by police.
• Handguns were used in 4,144 offences during 2006/07, 11% (or 527 offences) fewer than in 2005/06. Shotguns were used in 608 offences, a 5% decrease from the previous year.
• There were 413 firearm offences that resulted in serious injury in 2006/07, a 13% decrease over 2005/06. The number of slight injuries decreased by 23% to 2,528 from 2005/06. 41% of these slight injuries were caused by imitation weapons (some of which fire plastic pellets).
• Imitation weapons were used in 2,493 offences in 2006/07, 24% or 782 offences fewer than in the previous year after substantial increases since 1999/00. BB guns/ soft air weapons accounted for four fifths (83%) of these offences.

Further analysis of 2006/07 firearm offences will be published when full data is available early in 2008.
Use of weapons in violent incidents

It is currently not possible to identify offences involving the use of weapons other than firearms from national police recorded crime statistics. Figures for serious wounding involving knives and other sharp instruments from 2007/08 onwards will be presented in future volumes.
Weapons were used in 24% of all BCS violent crimes in 2006/07 a similar proportion to 2005/06 BCS (2%, the apparent difference is not statistically significant).
The most common types of weapons used were knives (used in 7% of all BCS incidents of violence), hitting implements (6%), and glass or bottles (5%). The use of different types of weapons has remained similar between 2005/06 and 2006/07 BCS.

Source: Home Office Statistical Bulletin: Crime in England and Wales 2006-07 (published)

http://www.connected.gov.uk/facts/guncrime/index.html


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Heres another one for you...... from http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-v...ime/gun-crime/

Gun crime

Gun-related crime kills, maims and intimidates, and is frequently linked to gang activity and the illegal drugs trade in the UK. We are committed to tackling gun crime to ensure the safety and security of all British citizens.
A snapshot of gun crime

Contrary to public perception, the overall level of gun crime in England and Wales is very low – less than 0.5% of all crime recorded by the police.
Facts & figures

• The number of overall offences involving firearms fell by 13% in 2006/07 compared to the previous year.
• Firearms were involved in 566 serious or fatal injuries in 2006/07, compared to 645 the previous year - a drop of 12%.
• The number of armed robberies involving guns dropped by 3%
• There were 13% fewer serious and fatal injuries related to gun crimes in 2006/07.
• The number of reported crimes involving imitation guns dropped by 15% in 2006/07.
• The number of reported crimes involving air guns dropped by 15% in 2006/07 over 2005/06.

(Source: Crime in England and Wales 2006/07; Homicide, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2006-07.)

One has to be very sceptical regarding official figures published here these days.


:-


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2328368.ece

Not entirely sure I would read too much into what David Leppard has to say on things, this is the same man that suggested that an ex-leader of the Labour party, Michael Foot was a KGB agent and now makes his living writing books and editorials.

Are you saying that this report is untrue - are you dissing all the contributors to it? Or are you simply relying on good old character assassination to discredit the viewpoint?



David Leppard

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

David Leppard is a British journalist and former editor of The Sunday Times investigative unit, the Insight team. He is the author of books on the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103, the Waco siege, and Special Branch, the British counter-terrorism and national-security police. He was responsible for a 1995 story suggesting Michael Foot, the former leader of the Labour party, had been an agent for the KGB. This later proved to be incorrect and the paper apologised. This was however a rare glitch in an otherwise impressive record.
Leppard was nominated as Journalist of the Year in the 1990 British Press Awards.


There you have it, straight from your dear old Wiki. I believe his record stands up well compared with that of our slippery government. Ex agents of the KGB is a very shadowy subject here, and one about which there is still great speculation.

There is no reason to dismiss this report in such cavalier fashion.

Regarding youth crime and knife-crime, please see the links on my post 25 - George Orwell thread.

Ah we are already at attempted insult stage I see well sorry but you are not going to drag me into another of your thread killing cyclic arguments, I am always amused by how the very same people that deride the media for its bias and inaccuracies jump to its defense when it suits their argument.

For the record I am saying I would not take to much notice of an editorial (his opinion) written by a man that is clearly not unbiased.

So I will leave you to it and wait to see what others have to say on the matter.

PS. It can hardly be character assassination if I am right and you post says I am:
- He was responsible for a 1995 story suggesting Michael Foot, the former leader of the Labour party, had been an agent for the KGB. This later proved to be incorrect and the paper apologised.

- He is the author of books on the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103, the Waco siege, and Special Branch, the British counter-terrorism and national-security police.

So get your last word in on the matter so that others can become involved without the tit for tat nonsense that these things deteriorate into.

As always, the insult stage is introduced by yourself. Perhaps you would remind me of when I have ever derided the media. I believe that you yourself hold the 'cyclic' title, so perhaps you would like to like to give that old cliche a rest. Allow me to point out that this is a political discussion thread, where folk are supposed to present their views and are not supposed to let others go unchallenged.
This ain't the "There were ten in the bed and the little one said 'roll over, roll over'. So they all rolled over and one fell out" club, yet - as I understand it.

I assume that by 'thread killing' you mean when I happen to present a view which does not agree with your own, or one that you are at a loss to oppose. I see thread killing as trying to shut people up so that they go unheard. For my part, I always try to encourage others to join in robust debate . The more the merrier, that's what we are here for.

And we have to be able to agree to disagree, and we shouldn't act the diva, continually crying 'foul'.

I have no wish to claim the 'last word'; don't blame me if that is how the cookie crumbles, my opinion is always up there to be shot down; so, please, be my guest.

I assume that by 'tit for tat nonsense' you refer to opposing views, whereas I am referring to the report in question and your attempt to dismiss articles by David Leppard as unworthy. The Wiki quotation certainly says otherwise, and you were very selective in this respect.

The article and the writer did not deserve to be disrespected in such cavalier fashion ; this is a very serious matter under discussion.


(The memoirs of the russian KGB defector Oleg Gordievsky , published by The Times, was at the centre of the Michael Foot spy affair:-

http://www.timeout.com/london/features/333/3.html

In 1995, an article in The Sunday Times, under the headline "KGB: Michael Foot was our agent", alleged that the Soviet intelligence services regarded Foot as an 'agent of influence', named as 'Agent Boot'.
. The article was based on the paper's serialisation of KGB defector Oleg Gordievsky's memoirs.

.http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...51C0A963958260

As Wiki made clear, this was the only 'blemish' on David Leppard's distinguished career.)



And now, back on topic, here is another example of what our police are up against , politically,on our streets:-


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=567032&in_page_id=1770

even in my rather quiet area, kids are carrying knives... i consider myself above this, but only because if i ever got knifed all me family and friends would find them and tear them limb from limb...

But is carrying knives anything new?
As kids we used to carry all sorts of items (knives, screwdrivers etc.) depending on where were were going.

The major problems with arming everybody are:
A) Not everyone is looking for a fight so regardless of how heavily armed they are they will not fire first which puts them at a major disadvantage. Thats the really nifty thing about fights with weapons, the winner is usually the person who uses them first not necessarily the person using them in defense.

B) Arming people will not stop criminals because they understand point A above but what it will do is start an arms race as they work to regain the advantage. (Ask yourself if you are going to rob someone possibly armed with 9mm are you going to take a .22)

C) Take a close look at the people you deal with each day (school, work, in vehicles, on the street) do you seriously want them armed?

There is a lot to be said for shooting as a sport and means of fun and relaxation (I have a collection of firearms and love hunting so I am not anti-gun by any means) but just as you don't wear your footy boots while driving you don't need to be wielding a gun either.

Another thing to consider is that there are huge amounts of research and development going into the production of non-lethal weapons around the world to equip law enforcement why would we be doing this if we thought the answer was to load up the general public with lethal weapons?

A) Why do such weak-minded individuals have a weapon in the first place?
B) Some criminals are crazy and will start a gunfight. Most want your money, not action.
C) Yes, it would actually make me feel better. Except for a few certain individuals.

All I know is I'm definitely getting a 10mm Auto pistol for self-defense when I turn 21, alon with some thorough training to ensure I can handle it well.