Germany in Afghanistan- winds of change

ObjSRgtLw

Active member
There's a lot of stuff going on in Germany right now.
People are critizising the fact that american battletroops were ordered to north Afghanistan to fight under German command. They say that we let others do the dirty work or that we shouldn't command battletroops at all. Though we are already engaged in combat politicians resile employing German combat troops (in fact that always was the case in Germany).
There are plans sending more German troops to the north - at the same time the voices against the mission itself are getting louder. The new head of the protestant church Germany said that "there is nothing good about this mission". Even the Government is now considering plans to end the mission until 2014.
All these things and the late criticism from the American General towards German operations in Afghanistan is a moral killer for German soldiers... they feel a rising uncertainty about the whole mission.

Seems like Germany will leave the field rather sooner than later, sorry guys.
Any comments?
 
People are critizising the fact that american battletroops were ordered to north Afghanistan to fight under German command. They say that we let others do the dirty work or that we shouldn't command battletroops at all. Though we are already engaged in combat politicians resile employing German combat troops (in fact that always was the case in Germany).

Sounds exactly like how my government treats us. Token commitment with limited casualties to keep the biased media and uninformed public happy.
 
Sounds like what is happening here. But what I can't understand is why they start complaining that your commanding American troops and then complain about sending German troops to be commanded. it makes no sense.
 
If I was a German soldier this would completely kill my moral. I am sorry to hear about your situation ObjSRgtLw. What did the American general say, I am not aware of it.
 
It's a response to the attitudes back at home.
Not many countries are appreciative towards their military as the US.
A little something that these countries (including mine) can learn from America.
 
It's a response to the attitudes back at home.
Not many countries are appreciative towards their military as the US.
A little something that these countries (including mine) can learn from America.

Well...in Germany, there's a lot of history involved in the people's opinion towards their military (I don't think I have to point out what I'm talking about).
Whether I (we?^^) like it or not, that's the way it is.
 
13 Redneck, we dont even know if it's a good thing actually. To say that the other countries have to learn that from America, you have to prove that it's a good thing first.

And I'm not sure it's the case. And in fact, I'm surprised about how the American people often support blindly their troops. I dont think it's normal or even a good thing.

The people arent that stupid. Okay, they dont know the situation. But what if it was this reason that pushs them to not support the war?

It would be stupid to support something without understanding it.

And I think that in a democracy, the people have to be extremely harsh with the politic system and the military. And even if I know that there will be abuses... sometimes at the level of the individual. Like when soldiers dont behave like they should...

All these rights we have in a democracy arent here just so things can look nice. They are there because they are necessary and useful.

As citizens, we have to ask for proofs, for arguments, for explanations, for informations... We dont have to be nice. To be responsible we have to ask to be convinced. And if we have doubts, we should be outside barking and asking for explanations.

What are we doing there? why are we losing our boys? how are they using the tax payer money? etc...
 
13 Redneck, we dont even know if it's a good thing actually. To say that the other countries have to learn that from America, you have to prove that it's a good thing first.

And I'm not sure it's the case. And in fact, I'm surprised about how the American people often support blindly their troops. I dont think it's normal or even a good thing.

The people arent that stupid. Okay, they dont know the situation. But what if it was this reason that pushs them to not support the war?

It would be stupid to support something without understanding it.

And I think that in a democracy, the people have to be extremely harsh with the politic system and the military. And even if I know that there will be abuses... sometimes at the level of the individual. Like when soldiers dont behave like they should...

All these rights we have in a democracy arent here just so things can look nice. They are there because they are necessary and useful.

As citizens, we have to ask for proofs, for arguments, for explanations, for informations... We dont have to be nice. To be responsible we have to ask to be convinced. And if we have doubts, we should be outside barking and asking for explanations.

What are we doing there? why are we losing our boys? how are they using the tax payer money? etc...


Wow you should be a politician.. You know how to loose a war allready.
Now just work on your people skills and you are in!.
Good luck to you!

//KJ.
 
You should think again KJ.

It's not a game, the point is not losing winning a war. War is a battle, or in fact, a battlefield.

The war in Afghanistan is just a way to fight terrorism. And if the people think that it's not the right battlefield... Then they can take off their support.

You dont own them. they are free people. It's up to them to decide.

And if we all start to think like you do. Then I fear for democracy. Because you think like a dictator. You think that the people have to agree with you and that they have to give you their kids to fight for you... It doesnt work that way.

They dont owe you anything. They are free. They arent stupid, they know what they are doing. And if you want support, you have to give them good reasons to support your positions. And you do this using rhetoric. A political speech where you use arguments to sell your ideas.
 
I think I know what you want to say LeMask, but there's a difference between supporting your government and supporting your troops.
In a democracy it is everyone's responsibility to carefully watch his/her government's actions and to criticize what's going wrong.
But soldiers aren't the ones starting wars or deciding whether or not your country is sending troops abroad. You can argue about our government's decision to send our troops to Afghanistan. But now, there's no way to change that decision anymore, and the soldiers are the wrong ones to blame for it. That's what is happening here in Germany. They're busy over there building bridges and schools and when they come back home they get to know the fact that half of the people is calling them murderers while the other half wants them back here because those wars just tend to cost a s#!t load of money.
And THAT is a damn shame...
 
I can understand that. I would call nobody murderer without proofs anyways...
And I dont blame soldiers for political choices.

But I dont see why we have to support a war to the end. In particular when it's an endless war like the war against terrorism.

Let's be honest for a minute. I wouldnt trust anyone telling me that the war against terrorism would last 10 or even 20 years.

Terrorism is here to stay. It's just a new type of crime. Mankind cant defeat this abomination. It can replace it by something worse... Like a powerful control of the populations where the individuals are monitored all the time and that they cant do anything without being under surveillance.

But I honestly dont understand your position entirely. You link the war with the troops. The people dont support the war. But the troops have the support of the people. We all know that they are doing a dangerous and difficult job.

I think there is no debate on that. There is a few extremists who hate the soldiers. But they are marginal.

I think that the politics are using the troops to shield themselves against critics.
 
It's not me linking the war and the troops who have to fight it, it's just most of the people round here who can't seem to understand the difference...and don't support their troops because they don't like the war they're fighting.
 
And I think that the people who cant make this difference are a minority (a very small minority).

Maybe it's different in Germany. I take your word for that... But damn. They cant be that stupid, it's hard to imagine for me.

Even with Germany's history. it's still a bit too much...

But still... in the democratic system, if the citizens dont want to support a war... It's their damn right. It's not up to us to decide what is right or wrong...
 
As a ordinary citizen I say Thank you. :peace: to all the military irregardless of nation, for stepping up to do a job, very few are willing. I have great respect and admiration for you and your job. God Bless! as for those in disagreement, what are they doing to protect home and neighbor. Smile, I think you're great! :m1:
 
What I admire about Americans is that they support their soldiers the way they do- and it doesn't mean that they support any kind of Political movement or action or the war in general- it's just a motivational and moral base for human beings and fellow citizens- in this case soldiers. This support makes it so much easier for soldiers to leave family and friends. Maybe some poeple are stupid but that's not linked to the fact of supporting the troops. Germany should very well follow this way of thinking- now civilians and soldiers are both unhappy with the situation, in America there is a widespread harmony. Just pretend for a second being a soldiers- coming home and entering a society that is as hostile as the Country you faught in- mabye not as dangerous but still it will screw your head eventually...
I think Moloch and others already said that in a way but I wanted to stress it a bit with this post.
 
You should think again KJ.

It's not a game, the point is not losing winning a war. War is a battle, or in fact, a battlefield.

The point is exactly that, IF you decide to go to war you better go to win.
Wow war is a battlefield?
How would you know?

The war in Afghanistan is just a way to fight terrorism. And if the people think that it's not the right battlefield... Then they can take off their support.

You are still not tracking are you?
The "war" in Afghanistan as you call it are two seperate missions.
ISAF, Trying to bring security to the region so that people doesn´t get killed for trying to learn to read..
You know, basic human rights that you obviously take for granted.
OEF is another mission hunting Taliban and AQ leadership.
Different missions.
So wich are you saying you want to end?
Wich one are you willing to loose?

You dont own them. they are free people. It's up to them to decide.

And if we all start to think like you do. Then I fear for democracy. Because you think like a dictator. You think that the people have to agree with you and that they have to give you their kids to fight for you... It doesnt work that way.

If the goverment you voted for sent troops, then YOU sent troops.
On you to support your troops untill they come home.
You owe them your support either untill they come home OR untill you have voted another goverment in that takes your troops out.
YOU sent them there, YOU support them untill they come home.
Want to discuss politics, don´t do it with me.
YOU are the politics of your nation, take responsibility for your actions.


They dont owe you anything. They are free. They arent stupid, they know what they are doing. And if you want support, you have to give them good reasons to support your positions. And you do this using rhetoric. A political speech where you use arguments to sell your ideas.

No, I don´t use rethoric or political speech.
I use action.
You?

Imbedded.
 
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