Thanks alot fellas. If you have more to tell, please do say it

Doppleganger, hmm, well, I am like a seeker of enlightenment. I sit back, listen to this and listen to that and try to make everything up, I might ask a few questions about not so clear things. I am pretty much like that in real life anyway. More of a listener than a speaker, listening and contemplating. Besides, I bet your knowledge on the matter is far more greater than mines

Originally Posted by MightyMacbeth

Thanks alot fellas. If you have more to tell, please do say it...Doppleganger, hmm, well, I am like a seeker of enlightenment. I sit back, listen to this and listen to that and try to make everything up, I might ask a few questions about not so clear things. I am pretty much like that in real life anyway. More of a listener than a speaker, listening and contemplating. Besides, I bet your knowledge on the matter is far more greater than mines

Doppleganger is right. Do not just leach off of others. Give us your opinion. Your opinion, no matter what it is, counts. Factual knowledge is unimportant. There are always "smarter" people. But you are a person. And we respect your opinion. We or I will subject it to scrutiny. But that is what you should want. Remember: whatever it is, we respect you.

There are no "clear things". The belief in certainty is an illusion. "[R]eal life" is marked by intellectual inconsistency. Why? There are only fluid or murky ideas...constant change. This change is what I have come to admire. And, I love it. Our lives are complex. The past is even more complicated. Hundreds of millions of dead people cry out for fair standards. Our lives cannot be reduced to a sentence or two. Nor can theirs.

ok, thats good to hear. You know, you all are more experts on the matter than me, and I didnt know what I can contribute, and if I had said anything, I think that you might start criticizing me heavily and jumping at me heh..

So what exactly do you want my view in?

I'd always heard that Hitler didn't really want all out War with England.

Hitler made a lot of mistakes, the big ones were starting War in the first place, then going into Russia, and declaring War on the United States of America, just to name a few and I for one am thankful he made so many mistakes after he started making War to begin with.

yea, just imagine what might have happened if he didnt go to war with Russia

Hitler also made the mistake of not talking and cooperating more with his allies, especially Japan. If Japan did not declare war on the United States by attacking Pearl Harbor it would have left the United States out of the war for at least 6 months to a year more possibly allowing Germany the time it needed to force Britain to its knees. Hilter made the mistake of thinking that if America entered the war they would go after Japan first. Even if Germany had the time and resources to try to invade Britain they would have a hell of time doing it, because along the British coast their military created pipes slightly off the coast of the shore that contained oil with could be pumped out and set on fire in the event of an invasion.

Originally Posted by MightyMacbeth

yea, just imagine what might have happened if he didnt go to war with Russia

This is a mirage. I would recommend a book by Lew Besymenski. He tries hard to undermine the argument that the Soviet Union sought war with Germany. He, however, finds ample documentation to demonstrate that Stalin planned for war by 1942...and the preparations were well underway.

I have always wondered why Stalin liquidated military officers prior to 1939. His text answers why. Stalin thought that he could exert total control over the military, kill enough "potentially unpatriotic" people, and create a totally socialist military prior to 1942. But there is another aspect. Many Soviet officers worked closely together with the Germans according to the Rapallo agreements. (1922)

Technically, if we agree that the Soviets developed a military machine of frightening proportions, (and this is hardly dismissed by normal Cold War argumentation), then Hitler acted in a preventive manner.

We, however, know that Hitler disregarded the work of Gehlen and the other intelligence specialists that put the Soviet military figures far higher than those officially accepted by the German military. Hitler openly (as far as the available documentation tells us) thought that the Soviets were poorly equipped and poorly led. Nobody could have been this stupid.

I wonder about that last point. The German documentation clearly shows that they helped build the Soviet military during the 1920s, they helped design new models of tanks, etc., and worked towards an overall better military machine. Hitler, as leader, would have had access to this type of information. Overall, I find the nature of the discussion quite poor.

But this comment stands for most of WWII. I think that far too much "crap" is presented and passed off for reality.

(I only have the German version: Lew Besymenski, Stalin und Hitler: Das Pokerspiel der Diktatoren, 2002).

Originally Posted by Ollie Garchy

This is a mirage. I would recommend a book by Lew Besymenski. He tries hard to undermine the argument that the Soviet Union sought war with Germany. He, however, finds ample documentation to demonstrate that Stalin planned for war by 1942...and the preparations were well underway.

Interestingly enough I actually believe the Germans would have been far better off letting the Russians attack them in 1942-43, during the late 30-early 1940 Russia attacked Poland and Finland and merrily got its butt handed to it essentially Soviet offensive doctrine was sadly lacking and there is no reason to assume 1 year would have made much difference.

Certainly they would have had better equipment in 1942-43 but so would Germany on top of this they would have been fighting a full strength German army and air force and had the Afrika Korp had time and material to do its job in North Africa it is quite conceivable that Russia would have faced a two front war.

Personally, I think it is unlikely that the Soviets would have attacked Germany in 1942-43. By 1941 Germany was the most experienced and seasoned army in the world overcoming France, a major land power in around 6 weeks, and sending the British into retreat back across the channel.

The Soviets in contrast couldn't even bully little Finland into total submission, so why would Stalin risk this? All indications is that he was trying to avoid war in 1941 by refusing to mobilise his divisions for fear of appearing to intimidate Germany. As it happened this may have worked to his advantage.

If the Soviets did wish to attack, why not do so when the German army were deployed against the west in June 1940, or against the Balkans in Spring 1941?

Originally Posted by perseus

Personally, I think it is unlikely that the Soviets would have attacked Germany in 1942-43. By 1941 Germany was the most experienced and seasoned army in the world overcoming France, a major land power in around 6 weeks, and sending the British into retreat back across the channel.

The Soviets in contrast couldn't even bully little Finland into total submission, so why would Stalin risk this? All indications is that he was trying to avoid war in 1941 by refusing to mobilise his divisions for fear of appearing to intimidate Germany. As it happened this may have worked to his advantage.

If the Soviets did wish to attack, why not do so when the German army were deployed against the west in June 1940, or against the Balkans in Spring 1941?

I think for 2 reasons:

1. Stalin was fairly secure in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in 1940, less secure in 1941 but nonetheless did not feel that Hitler would break it without a formal declaration.
2. The Red Army was in the middle of a vast reorganization in 1940/41. Stalin was well aware that it was not ready for conflict with the Wehrmacht. Moreover, the manner in which France was humbled made Stalin even more cautious.

Suffice to say I believe no Soviet attack would have happened before 1942 at the earliest. If you had to pin me down I'd say 1943. I say this because:

1. The Soviets were aware of German internal planning that had suggested to Hitler that German superiority in some technology and in tactical superiority would largely disappear by 1943.
2. The Soviets knew they were ahead of Germany in AFV design. Without war to introduce the Germans to the T-34 in 1941 this situation probably would have continued.
   
3. By 1943, the German Army would probably have been out of large-scale combat for nearly 3 years, thus losing the momentum built up in 1939/40. This is a very important point.

I am willing to almost bet my house on Stalin attacking Germany in 1943.