Have you noticed how Bin Laden-Iranian regime-Democratic party talking line is the same?

Iran: Report Will Not Save U.S. from "Iraq's Swamp"
TEHRAN -- Iran on Wednesday dismissed a long-awaited progress report by the two senior U.S. officials in Iraq saying it would not "save America from Iraq's swamp." link to original article

You can say what you like, and blame who you like, this is going to be another Vietnam.

We went in for all the wrong reasons, and we fought largely against a guerilla force, losing thousands of good men's lives.

Finally we realised that it was never going to end until we killed every last man woman and child who opposed us, tying us up for many more years, so we were forced to eat a big serving of humble pie and sue for peace at the Paris Peace talks then we slunk out the back door with our tail between our legs.

Yep, there are any amount of apologists who will say that we won, or nearly won, but you only have to listen to what the world calls this type of war to come to the realisation that we lost. Did you ever hear the Russian excursion into Afganistan called, "Russia's Vietnam"

Well we are presently visiting the coalition forces "new" Vietnam. The military are not going to be given the resources to finish it as it would embarrass the politicians who started it. So to save face for them the military will be left in Iraq, unwanted and unloved, to get on with it until the politicians can find an excuse to leave, General Petraeus' (Read "White House") report is one of the first steps in finding that excuse.

I still haven't got over the embarrassment of the way that the Military was left to clean up the politicians mess in Vietnam. I'm sure I'm not going to like this extraction any better.

Originally Posted by senojekips

You can say what you like, and blame who you like, this is going to be another Vietnam.

We went in for all the wrong reasons, and we fought largely against a guerilla force, losing thousands of good men's lives.

Finally we realised that it was never going to end until we killed every last man woman and child who opposed us, tying us up for many more years, so we were forced to eat a big serving of humble pie and sue for peace at the Paris Peace talks then we slunk out the back door with our tail between our legs.

Yep, there are any amount of apologists who will say that we won, or nearly won, but you only have to listen to what the world calls this type of war to come to the realisation that we lost. Did you ever hear the Russian excursion into Afganistan called, "Russia's Vietnam"

Well we are presently visiting the coalition forces "new" Vietnam. The military are not going to be given the resources to finish it as it would embarrass the politicians who started it. So to save face for them the military will be left in Iraq, unwanted and unloved, to get on with it until the politicians can find an excuse to leave, General Petraeus' (Read "White House") report is one of the first steps in finding that excuse.

I still haven't got over the embarrassment of the way that the Military was left to clean up the politicians mess in Vietnam. I'm sure I'm not going to like this extraction any better.

I think (and this is just my opinion) there is one big difference between this scenario and Vietnam and that was when Vietnam ended it was over when this one ends they will follow you home.

Originally Posted by MontyB

I think (and this is just my opinion) there is one big difference between this scenario and Vietnam and that was when Vietnam ended it was over when this one ends they will follow you home.

Yep! They're already here, and there is certainly the chance that our highly embarrassing withdrawal would make the home grown terrorists a lot more cheeky.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Yep! They're already here, and there is certainly the chance that our highly embarrassing withdrawal would make the home grown terrorists a lot more cheeky.

That is the problem, they are already here.... and they are growing in number because we are there.

Each time the United States Military shoots up a bunch of civilians they get more steam built up for their cause, the longer we stay the more time they will have to do something here in response.

If the US does leave the advantage we hold is the people over there do not have an Air Force or a Navy, so it would not be likely that they attack us here en masse here.
The Military can round them up here, protect the Boarders here, and the Iraqis can go back to killing each other.
Once their numbers are a lot less we can go back over and take Iraq for ourselves as the United States Taxpayer has paid a lot of money for that nation and US Military blood has been spilled.

Gator, I couldn't have said it better myself.

What I do object to is that the military are presently being sacrificed for political ends, and they will also bear the brunt of the blame when the poo finally hits the fan and we are forced to withdraw.

All of those lives,... just wasted, it's criminal.

I said right at the outset that it would have been far better to have adopted the Israeli strategy. Quietly watch Saddam until you know his movements, and when the time is right, give him a Hellfire enema. The same would apply to any successors who didn't get the message.

Hell, the Israelis do it regularly. At first there were cries of assasination, now no one even comments.

Other than the lives saved, think about the cost savings.

With all due respect our presence in the Middle East is not the fount of terrorism, domestic or international. Fundamentalist Islamic forces do not give a good god damn about whether we are in Baghdad, Kabul or Baltimore. The fact that we, non-Muslims, are on this planet drawing breath and have not converted to Islam is their sole grievance. They draw on the Qu'ran and the instructions of Mohammed to convert or kill EVERYONE. Leaving them be will not solve the problem. Neither did having some footprint however big or small cause it. The problem lies squarely on the words of a third rate trader and Arabian self-proclaimed prophet and the strict adherence to those words by people living some 1400+ years later.

There are two and only two solutions to this problem. 1) We all convert. 2) Through whatever means we have at our disposal we fight physically and ideologically the Muslim fundamentalist in all their varied manifestations until NONE remain. When and where that fight takes place is the only debate as I see it. For better or worse American fighting doctrine has always been that we take the fight to the enemy we do not let the enemy come to us. THAT is why we are where we are today. Leaders have always lied and bent the truth to push the punters behind the cause they wish them to support... in my experience only members of the military are exempt from this characterization. For this reason I find the attacks on Gen. Petraeus questioning his veracity to be grounds for an Old Hickory ass whooping.

General Petraeus is carrying on that fight as best he knows how according to the instructions his boss, POTUS, has given him. Criticising the General should be limited to how well he is implementing those orders. Full stop.

Islamic fundamentalists get a lot of their power because of the existence of the West and Western values. It is correct, the fact that US troops are in Iraq itself is not the only reason. These people will go on and look for reasons to attack the West.
When 9/11 rolled around, there were US troops in Bosnia protecting Muslims, but that didn't do squat. Presence in the Mid East was also minimal.
When Al Qaeda struck those US Embassies in eastern Africa, America had no business with Islamic countries.
In fact, some of the worst terrorist attacks have happened while US forces were NOT engaging Islamic terrorists or militias or what have you.
So I think by saying that this problem will be solved by pulling out of Iraq is a huge fallacy in logic.
The power of these radical Muslims DEPEND on being hostile to the West. You know what infuriates their hate? I'll tell you:
MTV
Western Movies (Especially that f**ked up Indie stuff)
Western clothing (you know that skimpy s**t that anti-war protestors wear to rallies)
I have seen (before 9/11) good interactions with devout Muslims and Christians from the American South because the Muslims were in fact more impressed with their morals and respect and faith in God. I s**t you not. I would know. I lived in Muslim countries for basically ALL of my teenage life.
This is why I say it is ironic that the people who seem to sympathize with the Islamic radicals are exactly the kinds of people that the Islamic radicals hate most. Just right now since they're being so cooperative in the fight against Western civilization they are being quoted and used. I think "useful idiots" is the term.
Back in 1993, that war was about as just and right as any war could get. America was helping the starving from a band of brutal thugs who stole their food and used their hunger to attract international aid that they in turn looted. Yet when one mission, ONE MISSION, went wrong, all those people were handed right back to the thugs. I think we the West as a whole were guilty that day.
That just tells about the lack of strength and character of our societies. We can't even fight for all the things we hold to be right and true.
Let General Petraeus do his job.

We tend to exaggerate the power of al Qaeda and other other such groups. Groups like al Qaeda are only capable of grabbing headlines (usually with high body counts), but they really don't have the power to be anything more than a nuisense. They lack any true threat to the USA. They have no standing army, they have no WMDs, and there are approximately as many Al Qaeda members in the world as there are Mafiosos in the USA (about 20000). Even if you included all the off shoots and sympathizers they are still outnumbered about 100,000,000 to 1.

Secondly converting everybody to Islam is not the primary goal. The primary goal is to overthrow all Arab governments in the Middle East and create a single Islamic Caliphate such as in the 13th Century. The reason they attack the West is because it supports these governments. In essence they are trying to turn back the calender a few centuries.

This so called 'war on terror' is like the 'war on crime' or the 'war on drugs'. Its a war that will never stop, there is always going to be terrorism espicially from the Islamic world. Best we do is control it, but bombing Muslims countries doesn't solve the problem, it increases it.

the only way to truely sideline terror as a tool, is to foster the growth of liberal islam, through prosperity and education.


bombing and invasion will not accomplish this