Sometimes I wonder if such a thing exists.
It's like the world is just full of bad guys and you have to choose between the ones that are less bad than the others.

If there is no such thing, it's only because we have lowered our standards to theirs.

It has never worked in the past, and it certainly won't work in the present.

It all comes back to the simple fact that two wrongs don't make a right.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Like I said, let's just shoot them where we find them. No more prisoners.

I agree. +1

Spike

There have been many first hand accounts of CIA/ US Gov torture, sure. But does that mean it is true? These people will do anything it takes to destroy the United States. They ignite bombs among civilians, of whom are not even US citizens in order to dissolve our fortitude in the war. I believe that they would not hesitate to produce many "first hand accounts" of US torture in order to divide our unity even further.

I do not mean to say that I discredit all claims right off the bat, but surely blindly lending support to a claim that has no basis, one that could not stand up in court, makes no sense. There are hundreds of first hand accounts of UFOs and Elvis being alive too...

I guess that makes me both a skeptic and naive. Fine. I believe that there is still a difference between the good and the bad. I believe the good will do what it can do morally to win this war and that the bad will go to any end, use any means including propoganda to win.

Perhaps my naivete is tied to my age. But I hope that through the years I am never proved wrong.

However we lose the ability to tell other nations to stop torture because we are doing it ourselves.

What's good for America is good for my country.

Maybe we ought to shut up about that as well.

Originally Posted by The Other Guy

However we lose the ability to tell other nations to stop torture because we are doing it ourselves.

And of course those that aren't torturing yet, may start doing so. Especially if the prisoners happen to be American.

If we take the gloves off, so will others.

Besides, Torture is a extremely inefficient method of extracting information. Any expert will tell you that the information gleaned from torture is of little value as the person being torture will confess to anything to stop his suffering.

A much more efficient way to get information is to 'flip' prisoners. Its very time consuming, but its also very effective. In WWII the bombings of Japan were organized by Japanese (Captured soldiers) turncoats who relayed target information to the B-29s. There is a famous picture of a Japanese turncoat in a Bomber talking on the radio to other bombers.

If we can flip Japanese soldiers with 800 year brainwashing in Bushido then we can certainly flip some goat herder from the Sinai. The Israelis have been doing it for years.

They don't always flip them by putting them in a five star hotel and giving them hot tea every morning.
The old fashioned bribe does work in some cases, other cases you need to blackmail, threaten, etc.
There are people who will not switch sides for ten million dollars.
Basically put, flipping isn't always done in very nice ways.
The expert advice on the inefficiencies of torture do hold merit but it's a very PR response. It's been done for thousands of years and they continue to do it because it brings about results.
Just because the guy talks the torture doesn't end there. If the information is no good, the guy will suffer even worse.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Who knows, flipping could be achieved by even worse means. i.e. kidnap their kids and expect full cooperation or have their kid sent back in five separate boxes.

Originally Posted by Spartacus

Spike

There have been many first hand accounts of CIA/ US Gov torture, sure. But does that mean it is true? These people will do anything it takes to destroy the United States. They ignite bombs among civilians, of whom are not even US citizens in order to dissolve our fortitude in the war. I believe that they would not hesitate to produce many "first hand accounts" of US torture in order to divide our unity even further.

I do not mean to say that I discredit all claims right off the bat, but surely blindly lending support to a claim that has no basis, one that could not stand up in court, makes no sense. There are hundreds of first hand accounts of UFOs and Elvis being alive too...

I guess that makes me both a skeptic and naive. Fine. I believe that there is still a difference between the good and the bad. I believe the good will do what it can do morally to win this war and that the bad will go to any end, use any means including propoganda to win.

Perhaps my naivete is tied to my age. But I hope that through the years I am never proved wrong.

Some good posts here, but as a starting principle regarding the current situation and what is at stake, I have to agree with Spartacus. Take it from there, but that is where we have to come from, or our sworn enemies will take the trousers off us.

And Spartacus, different age group here, seen it all ; same conclusion as yourself.

I just had an idea.
Let's do nothing. No operations abroad, no operations abroad, nothing. Let illegal aliens from terrorist countries in without checking for any documentation (while lawful visitors or migrants from non-terrorist countries get screened and sent back for not having enough money in their wallet on that particular day... do you know that I nearly got sent back in London Heathrow because my stay in London was deemed "too short"??), do not investigate any bombing, do not interdict any illegal cargo that may be used for terrorist purposes, allow speeches in public that call for a Jihad against all non-Muslims...
No more bikinis, no more MTV, no more TV in fact, no radio, no more bars, no more alcohol, no more discos... we will follow Sharia law down to the numbers unconditionally.
Let's do that and see where we stand a year from now.