The F-104 Starfighter was conceived as a high-altitude interceptor and was not used for very long by the US military. It was sold to Germany as a low-altitude ground-attack aircraft. Also, it was heavily modified to include the ability to drop nuclear bombs (which would have been handed over to the Luftwaffe by the Americans in the event of a nuclear war with the Warsaw Pact).

As a result of its heavy modifications and misuse, 292 aircraft were destroyed and 116 pilots lost their lives between 1961 and 1986.

This leads me to believe that those who were in charge of determining which weapons should be aquired and which should be decomissioned were either suffering from mental retardation, or have been corrupted by the sinister agents of the Evil Empire Lockheed.

Originally Posted by Mohmar Deathstrike

The F-104 Starfighter was conceived as a high-altitude interceptor and was not used for very long by the US military. It was sold to Germany as a low-altitude ground-attack aircraft. Also, it was heavily modified to include the ability to drop nuclear bombs (which would have been handed over to the Luftwaffe by the Americans in the event of a nuclear war with the Warsaw Pact).

As a result of its heavy modifications and misuse, 292 aircraft were destroyed and 116 pilots lost their lives between 1961 and 1986.

This leads me to believe that those who were in charge of determining which weapons should be aquired and which should be decomissioned were either suffering from mental retardation, or have been corrupted by the sinister agents of the Evil Empire Lockheed.

typical communist propaganda.

Would you mind giving us a link about this piece of useless propaganda, sir?

BTW, Italians are still using F-104s and they didn't lose that many pilots and jets.

Originally Posted by Mohmar Deathstrike

or have been corrupted by the sinister agents of the Evil Empire Lockheed.

Yes, the the same evil empire that created the F-16 (the world's most popular fighter) and the F-117 stealth bomber (history definingly revolutionary).

God, glad we don't even listen to their evil empire ideas like the F-22 Raptor or the F-35 JSF!

All they want to do is put out crap.

Originally Posted by phoenix80

typical communist propaganda.

Would you mind giving us a link about this piece of useless propaganda, sir?

BTW, Italians are still using F-104s and they didn't lose that many pilots and jets.

LOL, Communist propaganda. Prepare to be bombarded with links.

"procedures.
First flight of the F-104 prototype took place on February 7, 1954, and production aircraft first entered service with the USAF in January 1958. By the time the last Starfighter was built in Italy in 1978, a total of 2536 units had been constructed in this multinational program. A final question and observation on the somewhat controversial F-104: Why did the aircraft receive such wide acceptance by foreign air forces while, at the same time, it was essentially rejected by the USAF? Relatively light in weight, the aircraft offered a very high performance at a reasonable price. These were no doubt important ingredients in the formula that assured its widespread safe abroad, as was the highly aggressive and effective sales campaign mounted by the Lockheed organization. Limited payload and range, however, restricted the usefulness of' the F-104 in service with the USAF - an organization that could and did pay for exactly what it wanted. "
Source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...raft/f-104.htm


"In Luftwaffe service, the F-104G got a bad reputation because of the large number of accidents, many of them resulting in fatalities. Intensive flying operations with the Starfighter did not start in Germany until 1961, when only two crashes took place. There were seven crashes in 1962, 12 in 1964, and 28 in 1965, or more than two a month. By mid-1966, 61 German Starfighters had crashed, with a loss of 35 pilots. At the height of the crisis, the Starfighter accident rate peaked at 139 per 100,000 flying hours. As a result, the German press went into a feeding frenzy and the F-104G was given derogatory nicknames such as the "Flying Coffin" or the "Widowmaker", which brings to mind all of the flak that surrounded the Martin B-26 Marauder during World War 2. One running joke at the time was that if you waited long enough, just about every square mile of Germany would have a Starfighter crash onto it. The press left many people with the impression that there was something intrinsically wrong with the F-104G, that it was just too difficult an airplane to fly for the new and relatively inexperienced Luftwaffe pilots. The high loss rate generated a flurry of criticism of the Bonn government, some critics claiming that the entire Starfighter program had been politically-motivated and should be cancelled outright."
Source: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f104_17.html

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

Yes, the the same evil empire that created the F-16 (the world's most popular fighter) and the F-117 stealth bomber (history definingly revolutionary).

God, glad we don't even listen to their evil empire ideas like the F-22 Raptor or the F-35 JSF!

All they want to do is put out crap.

I'm not saying that every piece of military technology Lockheed Martin produce is crap. All I'm saying is that if they do produce something crap, they may still be able to sell it to someone in strange ways, pressuring governments. I admit, I have no proof for this, but I believe it is something worth investigating.

I don't know about its service in other nations, but the reason why the F-104 was phased out so quickly from USAF service was because the USAF was dominated by bomber generals who wanted to funnel all funding to building bigger and better bombers rather than fighters, not by an accident record or anything.

Canada also used the F-104 in the ground attack role. As it was so damn fast, it was veryt difficult to target, never mind shoot down. When a plane screams overhead at Mach 2, you and your radar do not have time to do anything... not even to tell yourself to duck.
To many Canadians, the plane was known as the Widowmaker, but this name was very much undeserved. If you look at the statistics of other fighters, including the F-18, the F-104 compares very favourably.

Dean.

Originally Posted by Dean

Canada also used the F-104 in the ground attack role. As it was so damn fast, it was veryt difficult to target, never mind shoot down. When a plane screams overhead at Mach 2, you and your radar do not have time to do anything... not even to tell yourself to duck.
To many Canadians, the plane was known as the Widowmaker, but this name was very much undeserved. If you look at the statistics of other fighters, including the F-18, the F-104 compares very favourably.

Dean.

Ahh, but how often do planes conduct bombing runs at speeds greater than Mach 1? Much less Mach 2? (Remember my sig for this part) During Vietnam the US attempted zero bombing runs on Hanoi at Mach 2, zero at Mach 1.8, two..... F-4's? attempted a bombing run against Hanoi traveling at Mach 1.4, they missed thier target literally by a mile and had to ditch over North Vietnam and were promptly captured. During the lifetime of the F-104 the technology just did not yet exist to accurately drop bombs on a target at such high speeds, the primary target identification instrument was the Mark-1 eyeball, in many instances it still is today.

Hmm, after having done 30 seconds of research I recognized this plane. I always thought its wings were way too small for the aircraft, perhaps I was right? Good god I hope not, all these physicists and engineers couldn't figure out the problem but an 18 year old kid with one year of Physics figured it out 40 years too late to do any good.

The so-called "Deal of the Century" produced considerable income for Lockheed, but considerable political controversy in Europe, particularly in Germany, where the minister of defence was almost forced to resign over the issue. Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands later confessed to having received more than 1 million USD in bribes. Many considered the Starfighter program a politically motivated enterprise, with governments browbeaten into accepting a USAF cast-off out of U.S. political pressure. This debate was exacerbated by the F-104's alarming accident rate. In German service alone 292 of the 916 Starfighters crashed, claiming the lives of 115 pilots, leading to cries that the Starfighter was fundamentally unsafe and earning it the Widowmaker nickname among others (see below). In the 1970s it was revealed that Lockheed had engaged in an extensive campaign of bribery of foreign officials to obtain sales, a scandal that nearly led to the ailing corporation's downfall.

Originally Posted by Mohmar Deathstrike

LOL, Communist propaganda. Prepare to be bombarded with links.

"procedures.
First flight of the F-104 prototype took place on February 7, 1954, and production aircraft first entered service with the USAF in January 1958. By the time the last Starfighter was built in Italy in 1978, a total of 2536 units had been constructed in this multinational program. A final question and observation on the somewhat controversial F-104: Why did the aircraft receive such wide acceptance by foreign air forces while, at the same time, it was essentially rejected by the USAF? Relatively light in weight, the aircraft offered a very high performance at a reasonable price. These were no doubt important ingredients in the formula that assured its widespread safe abroad, as was the highly aggressive and effective sales campaign mounted by the Lockheed organization. Limited payload and range, however, restricted the usefulness of' the F-104 in service with the USAF - an organization that could and did pay for exactly what it wanted. "
Source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...raft/f-104.htm


"In Luftwaffe service, the F-104G got a bad reputation because of the large number of accidents, many of them resulting in fatalities. Intensive flying operations with the Starfighter did not start in Germany until 1961, when only two crashes took place. There were seven crashes in 1962, 12 in 1964, and 28 in 1965, or more than two a month. By mid-1966, 61 German Starfighters had crashed, with a loss of 35 pilots. At the height of the crisis, the Starfighter accident rate peaked at 139 per 100,000 flying hours. As a result, the German press went into a feeding frenzy and the F-104G was given derogatory nicknames such as the "Flying Coffin" or the "Widowmaker", which brings to mind all of the flak that surrounded the Martin B-26 Marauder during World War 2. One running joke at the time was that if you waited long enough, just about every square mile of Germany would have a Starfighter crash onto it. The press left many people with the impression that there was something intrinsically wrong with the F-104G, that it was just too difficult an airplane to fly for the new and relatively inexperienced Luftwaffe pilots. The high loss rate generated a flurry of criticism of the Bonn government, some critics claiming that the entire Starfighter program had been politically-motivated and should be cancelled outright."
Source: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f104_17.html


I'm not saying that every piece of military technology Lockheed Martin produce is crap. All I'm saying is that if they do produce something crap, they may still be able to sell it to someone in strange ways, pressuring governments. I admit, I have no proof for this, but I believe it is something worth investigating.

home.att.net is one of the most useless and ignorant sources of info

I don't think this is the first time something like his would have happened. The Canadian company Avro cancelled their Arrow in the 1950's, an aircraft that was years ahead of its time, and instead adopted to use US Army Nike missiles to defend their skies from Soviet bombers. This was at the time seen as another attempt by American companies to dominate the defense industry of the West. But in the 70's the Royal Canadian Mounted Police announced that the Soviet's had a spy in the Avro company. And only a few years after the cancellation of the Arrow the Mig-25 flew for the first time, a plane which had a startling resemblance to the Arrow.

Bleh, I don't think it was the Mig-25 I meant to say, looks like it is time to put the old noggin to some use.

Originally Posted by Mohmar Deathstrike

I admit, I have no proof for this, but I believe it is something worth investigating.

Read that line over and over again so you don't end up like Michael Moore. Anyone can dream something up, that's why we call it fiction not reality.