[quote=Infern0;389979]




see del boy, when it comes to religion im torn, while i think most/all organised religions are a crutch, too easily twisted to justify some of the most vile atrocities on our planet, im also extremely against people being discriminated against because of their faith.

there are bigots and terrorists of almost every creed out there, it's not just confined to islam/quote




I have to point out that your opening sentence is the oldest outworn cliche in the book, and in England no-one would suggest to a muslim that his religion was a crutch.

As for discrimination - in how many Islamic countries can a church be built, or churchbells rung, or Christian festivals celebrated, or people allowed to accept religions other than Islam?

As for your last sentence, you must have your head buried in the sand to not recognise that many countries are under dire threat from the current extreme militant Islamic ideology. Denial, my friend, is something to beware.

Originally Posted by Del Boy

As for discrimination - in how many Islamic countries can a church be built, or churchbells rung, or Christian festivals celebrated, or people allowed to accept religions other than Islam?

As the most populous Muslim country in the world Indonesia has many churches as in fact do most middle eastern countries although as I understand it Saudi Arabia doesn't (I could be wrong it was a brief serach).

As for your last sentence, you must have your head buried in the sand to not recognise that many countries are under dire threat from the current extreme militant Islamic ideology. Denial, my friend, is something to beware.

Care to list these "many" countries?
No offense but it is hard to determine where the fear mongering stops and the real threat starts.

Originally Posted by MontyB

"As the most populous Muslim country in the world Indonesia has many churches as in fact do most middle eastern countries although as I understand it Saudi Arabia doesn't (I could be wrong it was a brief serach)."quote
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Must have been a very brief search indeed - get the ol' wiki working.


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Care to list these "many" countries?
No offense but it is hard to determine where the fear mongering stops and the real threat starts.

No offence - but as I said, heads buried in sand. QED.

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Oh. BTW - do you support religious schools? You forget to tell us.


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Give me liberty or give me death.

Turkey. Many many churches, church bells are allowed to ring. Nobody can do anything against that. Quite the contrary in Germany, people can sue they churches if they feel annoyed by church bells.
And I have to say infern0 is right with Indonesia.

Regards,
Il

Originally Posted by Del Boy

No offence - but as I said, heads buried in sand. QED.

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Oh. BTW - do you support religious schools? You forget to tell us.


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Give me liberty or give me death.

I will take it that you cannot list these countries in which case your argument is more political than factual.

As for my views on religion and their schools well rather than type another answer that says the same thing, these are pretty much my views on the matter as well.

Originally Posted by Infern0

yes i do, but only in the fact that i find organised religion as a whole divisive.


a simple question for you now; which would you rather have in your country;


state sponsored (and therefore state monitored and approved) islamic schools where they teach an approved ciriculum.

~OR~

an independent islamic school set up, with all the risks that that may entail



see del boy, when it comes to religion im torn, while i think most/all organised religions are a crutch, too easily twisted to justify some of the most vile atrocities on our planet, im also extremely against people being discriminated against because of their faith.

there are bigots and terrorists of almost every creed out there, it's not just confined to islam

However I suspect you knew this and are just trying to divert attention from a weak argument.

Originally Posted by !LH@N

Turkey. Many many churches, church bells are allowed to ring. Nobody can do anything against that. Quite the contrary in Germany, people can sue they churches if they feel annoyed by church bells.
And I have to say infern0 is right with Indonesia.

Regards,
Il

Indeed as I understand it Morocco also has a history of being open minded toward religion although they have had some issues recently to a large degree I think a long period of political stability is required for this type of thought process to take hold.

[quote=Del Boy;390101]

Originally Posted by Infern0

see del boy, when it comes to religion im torn, while i think most/all organised religions are a crutch, too easily twisted to justify some of the most vile atrocities on our planet, im also extremely against people being discriminated against because of their faith.

there are bigots and terrorists of almost every creed out there, it's not just confined to islam/quote




I have to point out that your opening sentence is the oldest outworn cliche in the book, and in England no-one would suggest to a muslim that his religion was a crutch.

As for discrimination - in how many Islamic countries can a church be built, or churchbells rung, or Christian festivals celebrated, or people allowed to accept religions other than Islam?

As for your last sentence, you must have your head buried in the sand to not recognise that many countries are under dire threat from the current extreme militant Islamic ideology. Denial, my friend, is something to beware.

MONTY B.

You quote Inferno and like him you hate religion but you jump to use it for your agendas, like supporting religious schools. I quote my response above.

My 'weak' argument is such that you cannot answer it. In fact you cannot even read it! I give you another shot at it,

See if you can come up with some sort of an answer and in doing so do not ignore parts of it completely. That is, before you call it weak.

I have my facts ready, do you have yours?


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give me liberty or give me death.

[quote=Del Boy;390125]

Originally Posted by Del Boy

MONTY B.

You quote Inferno and like him you hate religion but you jump to use it for your agendas, like supporting religious schools.

My 'weak' argument is such that you cannot answer it. In fact you cannot even read it!To give you another shot at it, I have quoted it above.

See if you can come up with some sort of an answer and in doing so do not ignore parts of it completely. That is, before you call it weak.
Perhaps you could try this off your own bat and not quote others, to whom I have already responded.

When you have done this I will respond . How many countries have you come up with so far? C'mon, we are talking discrimination here, one of your favourites.

But once again you jump to conclusions and then extrapolate it to suit your point of view, I don't hate religion I think it is fine for those that want to follow it (but it is not for me) and if people want build schools to teach it I am all for it as long as I personally am not required to support it financially.

Incidentally I quote Infern0 because I agree with him and that is all also your desire to ignore an answer does not mean that the question hasn't been answered.

Originally Posted by Del Boy

As for discrimination - in how many Islamic countries can a church be built, or churchbells rung, or Christian festivals celebrated, or people allowed to accept religions other than Islam?

quick search =

indonesia, malaysia, pakistan, turkey, iraq, iran, egypt.... the only one that they REALLY put their foot down is saudi.

Islam

Some Islamic theologians quote the Quran ("There is no compulsion in religion," Sura 2:257) to show scriptural support for religious freedom. There are, however, other verses and text from the Hadith that dictate severe treatment to those who fight against the islamic state, which have been taken out of context and extended to all non-believers, either by radical groups, or by anti-islamic critics. Along the history there has been a successful coexistance between muslims and non-muslim. In modern days, some islamic countries have discirminating laws against non-muslims.
In Iran, the constitution recognizes four religions whose status is formally protected: Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

more completely;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_...dom_by_country

besides, when is "what they do" a deciding point for what WE do?

Originally Posted by Del Boy

You quote Inferno and like him you hate religion

putting words in my mouth now are we?


i dont "hate" religion at all...they very fact i spend much of my time defending people of the islamic faith on here should be indicative of that.

it's not for me, i wish people didn't need to cling to organised religion, and i see organised religion as being the major cause for much of the strife and atrocities in our world today....


but i dont "hate" it


you know del boy....i think you have a long way to go before you "get" me. listen, dont assume

You still haven't answered my question re discrimination in Islamic countries today. In fact you haven't READ my question, any more than Monty B has. You have both avoided most of the areas on my list. Do you want me to put them to you individually? In retrospect, perhaps I should have specified 'choose' other religions, and not 'accept'. (choose as in convert to).

As it happens, every one of those countries you mention, with the exception of Iran, are countries under threat from extreme militant Islam, along with a great many others, as I stated regarding heads in sand.

But in none of them today, with the possible exception of secular Turkey, could you BUILD a christian church, whereas we establish new mosques in Britain constantly. You will find that with the exception of secularTurkey, the other practices I listed are unacceptable also.

You obviously also avoided reading the report of our Muslim minister, post 29, stating that Britain is the best place in the world for muslims to live. In this brave new world, it is the christians who are discriminated against throughout the muslim world, unfortunately.


In Britain, muslims are not discriminated against. Why do you think they are fighting to get in? Illegals are turning down very large sums of money to leave.

BTW - I think your 'ISLAM' quote makes my point for me, if read carefully.

PS. I take back the 'hate'. It was the opinion impressed on me by both of you.( From your post it sounds selective though.)
Do you also not hate christianity?

Originally Posted by Del Boy

You still haven't answered my question re discrimination in Islamic countries today. In fact you haven't READ my question, any more than Monty B has. You have both avoided most of the areas on my list. Do you want me to put them to you individually? In retrospect, perhaps I should have specified 'choose' other religions, and not 'accept'. (choose as in convert to).

As it happens, every one of those countries you mention, with the exception of Iran, are countries under threat from extreme militant Islam, along with a great many others, as I stated regarding heads in sand.

But in none of them today, with the possible exception of secular Turkey, could you BUILD a christian church, whereas we establish new mosques in Britain constantly. You will find that with the exception of secularTurkey, the other practices I listed are unacceptable also.

You obviously also avoided reading the report of our Muslim minister, post 29, stating that Britain is the best place in the world for muslims to live. In this brave new world, it is the christians who are discriminated against throughout the muslim world, unfortunately.


In Britain, muslims are not discriminated against. Why do you think they are fighting to get in? Illegals are turning down very large sums of money to leave.

BTW - I think your 'ISLAM' quote makes my point for me, if read carefully.

PS. I take back the 'hate'. It was the opinion impressed on me by both of you.( From your post it sounds selective though.)
Do you also not hate christianity?

What the hell are you rabbiting on about?
Seriously as far as I can tell your questions have been answered by multiple people and all of them have pretty much said the same thing, as I posted earlier just because the answer does not suit your agenda doesn't mean that the question was not answered. Accept it and for the sake of what ever deity you have chosen move on.

PS. I take back the 'hate'. It was the opinion impressed on me by both of you.( From your post it sounds selective though.)
Do you also not hate christianity?

This would be funny if it was not sad.
I will answer for myself as I wouldn't presume to speak for Infern0... I don't hate any religion I just don't care about any religion its just not for me, people have the right to believe in whatever they like and I will happily defend their right to do so but I will not put one above the other which means that while I would prefer my government does not fund religious schools if they do choose to fund one then I believe they must fund all regardless of sect.