Originally Posted by Del Boy

"


How better to do this than by all sharing the local state schools? That is what happened at my school.

See, I'm not Redneck but I'll still answer you.
What's wrong with state funded muslim schools? If there are state funded catholic, state funded protestant and state funded jewish schools, why shouldn't there be any state funded muslim schools? He?

Regards,
Il

Originally Posted by !LH@N

See, I'm not Redneck but I'll still answer you.
What's wrong with state funded muslim schools? If there are state funded catholic, state funded protestant and state funded jewish schools, why shouldn't there be any state funded muslim schools? He?

Regards,
Il

Hi, please to meet you. I belive that religious schools are divisive. Here, we especially need as little of that and much joining together as we can experience. I am not happy to contemplate a country divided by religion and ideology. That is taking the world backwards. I would advocate the great religions struggling to pull people together in mutual respect and and encouraging love as brethren. This is the future of religion, not the devastation of man-kind. Mere men should never use religion to seperate peoples, and therefore children should grow up mixing together and understanding each other. I believe all else is men's politics, not religion.

Regards

Del Boy.

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Hi, please to meet you. I belive that religious schools are divisive. Here, we especially need as little of that and much joining together as we can experience. I am not happy to contemplate a country divided by religion and ideology. That is taking the world backwards. I would advocate the great religions struggling to pull people together in mutual respect and and encouraging love as brethren. This is the future of religion, not the devastation of man-kind. Mere men should never use religion to seperate peoples, and therefore children should grow up mixing together and understanding each other. I believe all else is men's politics, not religion.

Regards

Del Boy.

Hi! Pleased to meet you too!
That's an answer I could sign. I totally agree with you. Even though I'm a devout Muslim, I'm a very extreme secularist and against any kind of religious school. Look at Turkey, even though the school system sucks almost all schools are state funded, or at least supervised, and there are no such things as "religious schools", except the Imam Hatip schools, which are
professional schools for imams (if you want more information on that, and for example on the Christian equivalents of Imam Hatip's I'd be more than glad to help you).
The point, though, is that England apparently allows those religious schools, and that in that case Muslim have the equal right to open up their own religious schools.

Regards,
Il

Originally Posted by Del Boy

OK - straight question, cannot be misunderstood - do you consider religious schools divisive? Yes or no?

yes i do, but only in the fact that i find organised religion as a whole divisive.


a simple question for you now; which would you rather have in your country;


state sponsored (and therefore state monitored and approved) islamic schools where they teach an approved ciriculum.

~OR~

an independent islamic school set up, with all the risks that that may entail



see del boy, when it comes to religion im torn, while i think most/all organised religions are a crutch, too easily twisted to justify some of the most vile atrocities on our planet, im also extremely against people being discriminated against because of their faith.

there are bigots and terrorists of almost every creed out there, it's not just confined to islam

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Hi, please to meet you. I belive that religious schools are divisive. Here, we especially need as little of that and much joining together as we can experience. I am not happy to contemplate a country divided by religion and ideology. That is taking the world backwards. I would advocate the great religions struggling to pull people together in mutual respect and and encouraging love as brethren. This is the future of religion, not the devastation of man-kind. Mere men should never use religion to seperate peoples, and therefore children should grow up mixing together and understanding each other. I believe all else is men's politics, not religion.

Regards

Del Boy.

^^^
she now THIS is what im talking about....i agree 100% with what you said above

Originally Posted by !LH@N

Hi! Pleased to meet you too!
That's an answer I could sign. I totally agree with you. Even though I'm a devout Muslim, I'm a very extreme secularist and against any kind of religious school. Look at Turkey, even though the school system sucks almost all schools are state funded, or at least supervised, and there are no such things as "religious schools", except the Imam Hatip schools, which are
professional schools for imams (if you want more information on that, and for example on the Christian equivalents of Imam Hatip's I'd be more than glad to help you).
The point, though, is that England apparently allows those religious schools, and that in that case Muslim have the equal right to open up their own religious schools.

Regards,
Il

Il - I take your point. It is good to hear from Turkey. Would you like to have many Islamic religious schools? . Would you like many Christian religious schools, 100's? I am familiar with Ataturk's secular heritage to Turkey, and my hope is that they can retain it. My personal religious position mirrors your own, and it is a personal matter to me, and I respect the next man's right to his own beliefs, which I would never wish to dismiss.

I am concerned regarding anything in my country which encourages further division, and I believe that in this day and age schools should be secular and strictly monitered to encourage unity and respect and understanding.

As far as England is concerned, we do already have Muslim schools, but it is important to realise that most of our government politicians have little or no regard for religion at all, and are merely vote-gathering. The man just appointed as head of the Liberal Democrat party, on his first day of power, publically stated that he did not believe in God. That, of course, is his own business, but he obviously saw it as a vote-winner.

I guess that a great many agendas in the world do not wish our children to grow up in harmony, but that philosophy is repugnant to me, as is hatred, and particularly hatred passed on to children.

I object to those who have no religion and wish to deprive me of mine; I accept that they have a different relationship with God than I, but my business is my business, and theirs is theirs. I will always support a man's rights, religious or not; to pursue them in peace and friendship.

I believe this attitude is typical of my country's heritage.

Regards

Del Boy.

Sometimes what can happen when you ALL go to the same school is polarization happens there.
Here's an example.
A minority gets bullied by the majority and seeks comfort in groups with other minorities of his type. They start feeling more detached and more hostile towards the majority. They start looking at groups ABROAD that are more similar to them and start developing unrealistic fantastic ideas of life under the extreme versions of their values etc. They start working actively to bring down or kill the majority, if anything out of spite and hatred.
If you have divided schools, this problem does not occur at young, impressionable ages. They realize that even within their own group there are some really bad eggs. It is more obvious when you are not in conflict with someone "not like you." With the right kind of teaching of mutual understanding, although a certain line between the groups may exist, they will not see the need to be hostile to each other.
It's simplified but that is what I am talking about.
Some of the most extreme Koreans are ones who do not live in Korea just as the most hard line Jews do not live in Israel.

excellent point redneck

Originally Posted by Del Boy

Il - I take your point. It is good to hear from Turkey. Would you like to have many Islamic religious schools? . Would you like many Christian religious schools, 100's? I am familiar with Ataturk's secular heritage to Turkey, and my hope is that they can retain it. My personal religious position mirrors your own, and it is a personal matter to me, and I respect the next man's right to his own beliefs, which I would never wish to dismiss.

I do not wish to have many religious schools. In fact, I do not wish to have any religious schools whatsoever. I don't care which religion. The only type of religious schools I wish to keep would be professional school, that is schools where the profession of rabbi/priest/imam/you name it is thought. Then we do not need religious schools.
Now, there are certain Christian private schools in Turkey. That would be the schools of the Armenian and Greek minorities, and I think that these schools are needed in order to secure that those minorities can keep their heritage. The problem, though, is that this may and does lead to division (as you said).
Now Christian seminaries do face a lot of trouble in Turkey, but that's a totally different issue.

I am concerned regarding anything in my country which encourages further division, and I believe that in this day and age schools should be secular and strictly monitered to encourage unity and respect and understanding.

I totally agree.

As far as England is concerned, we do already have Muslim schools, but it is important to realise that most of our government politicians have little or no regard for religion at all, and are merely vote-gathering. The man just appointed as head of the Liberal Democrat party, on his first day of power, publically stated that he did not believe in God. That, of course, is his own business, but he obviously saw it as a vote-winner.

I think we do have the same problem in Turkey. The people in power are using religion for vote-gathering. Not so much in Germany (where I live) though, I think the ruling Christian Democrat Party is very hardcore Christian and anti-muslim/-Turkish/-immigrant.

I guess that a great many agendas in the world do not wish our children to grow up in harmony, but that philosophy is repugnant to me, as is hatred, and particularly hatred passed on to children.

I object to those who have no religion and wish to deprive me of mine; I accept that they have a different relationship with God than I, but my business is my business, and theirs is theirs. I will always support a man's rights, religious or not; to pursue them in peace and friendship.

I believe this attitude is typical of my country's heritage.

Regards

Del Boy.

I totally agree with what you are saying.

Redneck, I see the point you are making, but I don't have any personal experience with those kinds of private schools, so I can't really judge on that. What I do think though is that kids who went to "islamic" schools over here in Germany tend to be more radical, same with Turkey.

Regards,
Il

Il - I take on board, understand, agree with and appreciate everything you say here. At least there are two of us! Wait - looks like we have another here, reported below!

Muslims are not discriminated against in my country, rather, perhaps, we discriminate against ourselves, which is now causing concerns I have to say.The below report is revealing, and I was very pleased to read it (the cricket reference is irrelevant of course, within the wider context)




By JANE MERRICK - Last updated at 00:29am on 28th December 2007

Muslims living in England should be proud to support the national cricket team and should celebrate the country they belong to, Britain's first Muslim Minister said last night.

Shahid Malik issued a call to the Islamic community to embrace, not reject, Englishness as part of their identity.
The International Development Minister said he did not endorse the "cricket test" proposed by former Tory Cabinet Minister Norman Tebbit. But he said he and many of his Muslim friends were enthusiastic fans of England's football and cricket teams.

Fly the flag: Shahid Malik says many Muslim cricket fans are happy to support England..

Muslims living in Britain enjoyed greater freedoms than anywhere in the Islamic world, the MP added..

He said it was "hardly surprising" that extremists did not accept Muslims as English if those minorities did not see themselves in that way.

Mr Malik said: "My message to young Muslims is 'Be proud to be English and don't let anyone steal your identity away. This is one of the greatest nations in the world and we should be proud to live here - let's shout about it a bit more'."

The Labour MP's comments will reignite the debate about what it means to be British, which has been spearheaded by Gordon Brown.
Lord Tebbit once claimed that the true test of an immigrant's loyalty was whether he would support England in a cricket match against his country of origin.
Mr Malik's family roots are in Pakistan, but he was born in Burnley, Lancashire, and he supports England's cricketers against Pakistan. He said: "I find quite a lot of Muslims who are now very enthusiastic supporters of the English football team.
"But supporting a team is not the true test of being English. It's about the country you consider your home, the place where you will raise your kids.
"I'm very proud to support the England football and cricket teams but I don't believe that is the defining element of your national identity."
Mr Malik said in his youth he backed "anyone but England" at sport "because I had a notion of Englishness coloured by what the BNP said".
It was when he visited Scotland and met Asians who wore the kilt and were proud to be Scottish that he embraced Englishness.
He said: "It was a liberating experience - I realised I could be proud to be English."
The MP now holds St George's Day coffee mornings in his constituency to bring together people from all minorities to celebrate a shared English identity.

"Englishness encompasses anyone who has an allegiance to this country, pays their taxes here, considers this their home. If you do these things, you are English," he said.

Mr Malik, who is getting married in the New Year, became the first Muslim member of the Government when he was appointed International Development Minister by Gordon Brown in July.

A former member of the Commission for Racial Equality, he has advised the Government on community issues. One of the four 7/7 suicide bombers was from his Dewsbury constituency.

Mr Malik added last night: "The rights and freedoms we enjoy in England and the UK are better than any other country in the world for Muslims, better than any country in the Islamic world."

The Minister warned it was up to British Muslims to stand up for democracy. "With these freedoms come responsibilities and we all need to speak out more if we see something that is not right, whether it's Islamic extremists or the BNP._________________
-

I agree with this minister. Of course being English is part of their identity. But I think keeping their heritage in mind (for example Pakistani) is part of their identity, too. It just depends on how much the population accepts you or not, you know. I can't know how it is in the UK but here in Germany I have a somehow mixed experience. Of course Germany defined great parts of my personality, but I often face racism here and I wouldn't be accepted as German even if I tried. Plus, really my cultural heritage and homeland is Turkey, Germany is home too, though. I will support Germany in every match, except when they play Turkey
As said, I agree with you and it just depends on how much much the "British" population accepts the Muslim community as a part of themselves.

Regards,
Il