Not that this has something to do with the arguement at hand but while on the subject Did the USA sign the geneva Convention? I heard that We didnt.



And 13th redneck you said " You could argue that a few lives being lost are worth the sacrifice in order to maintain our higher moral ground. " I am confused by the wording, Whos lives are being lost? this isnt a challenge to your statement just a question.

Lives of our own people.
Not theirs.

And I agree somewhat with your staement but if we take 5 eyes for 500,000 eyes it is completly justifiable

do you agree?

however I cannot say that Americans Should Be sacraficed for the moral high ground

Just that you bring a valid point. As do most of your posts. All that I have seen actually.

And as a side note thanks again for the advice in my other thread.

Originally Posted by Redcell

Please Name one Prisoner the United States gov. Tortured For political reasons. Please name one person tortured for fun.

If it wasnt for national security it would be wrong. And please nobody say anything like "Well if somebody said massacaring a village was for national security would it be ok? " because there is a limit and it should be strict

and if we are torturing innocent civs the rules should be stricter. but we are not.

Now you have opened up the "loophole" problem, name one person in any of these offshore prisons (lets say Guantánamo Bay) that has been found guilty of anything?

I have no doubt that Iran, North Korea and China only torture the guilty and even then only for the most justifiable reasons they can make up at the time.

The fact is that torture is like pregnancy you cant just be a little bit pregnant, you are or you aren't.

Depends on your definition of what constitutes torture, but the United States has classified waterboarding as torture and therefore you can't turn your back on that. It stands. Waterboarding is torture and it's got official signatures and stamps all over it.

Redcell, thanks for having an open mind.
I have changed my views about various things over the years, many of them shaped in this forum. Just by reading and considering you're doing better than most people.
Like I said, we have to stay as the good guys or else it makes the bad guys right. And that's the last thing we want. Being safe is one thing, but being right is even more important.

Originally Posted by Redcell

Please Name one Prisoner the United States gov. Tortured For political reasons. Please name one person tortured for fun.

This thread is not about political prisoners, it is about "Prisoners" ... period.

Seeing that almost none of those tortured in Gitmo and other places were found guilty of any crime, and little if any vital information was gained (See the FBIs own report), that really means it that they were all tortured for "fun" weren't they. Remember Abu Ghraib and Bagram, tell be that those prisoners were not being tortured. Read about the best documented case, now made into a movie, "Taxi to the dark side".

A 2,000-page report on an internal investigation by the US military leaked to The New York Times and published yesterday provides exhaustive detail on how the two were kept chained in excruciating positions and kicked to death

http://www.president-bush.com/criminal-regime.html

If you are going to debate this subject, at least do some research before you make statments based on your own impressions.

As the Geneva Conventions existed prior to the Cold War all five Security Council Permanent Members signed the Conventions. ironically the only current member of the Five not to be a signatory is communist China whose elevation was contingent upon signing them when they took the nationalist's seat.

Irregulars are covered by the Geneva Conventions in General Convention 3 Article 48 and in the Second Protocol which particularly addresses Guerrilla troops if they have a clear command structure and a recognised holding of lands- both of which certainly applied to the Taliban and the Al Qaida.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Now you have opened up the "loophole" problem, name one person in any of these offshore prisons (lets say Guantánamo Bay) that has been found guilty of anything?

I have no doubt that Iran, North Korea and China only torture the guilty and even then only for the most justifiable reasons they can make up at the time.

The fact is that torture is like pregnancy you cant just be a little bit pregnant, you are or you aren't.

In response to Name one person in gitmo who has been found guilty of anything :Khalid Sheikh Mohammed the man who planned 9/11.

Originally Posted by senojekips

This thread is not about political prisoners, it is about "Prisoners" ... period.


If you are going to debate this subject, at least do some research before you make statments based on your own impressions.

I took the other stuff out because this is what id like to focus on
Prisoners are prisoners and the quote of mine was taken out of context. It was a response Ill Ignore the one above this

Originally Posted by Redcell

In response to Name one person in gitmo who has been found guilty of anything :Khalid Sheikh Mohammed the man who planned 9/11.

But in his case, he was already known to be responsible before he was captured and taken to Gitmo, so once again, torture was only a punishment, not a means of getting his confession, it was totally unneccessary, especially in view of the fact that this act made those who conducted it, war criminals, little better than Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

Remember, we are supposed to be convincing the world that we are "the good guys" not the same as those whom we criticize for their uncivilised behaviour.