The Dutch Government is still speculating of who is the confirmed enemy is. Before we get into Counter-terrorism teams, I think we should focus on intelligence.

Originally Posted by Kick_in_the_eye

Back in the Medieval times, when Europe was burning witches, Jews and Christians were tolerated within Islam and lived side by side.

Yes the lived side by side, but they were NOT treated as equal, Christians and Jews have to pay a special tax and they didn't have all the rights of Muslims.

And yes, even today this is so; Cairo as an example, has plenty of Churches.

Yes plenty of churches, but every so often someone throws a grenade into one of these churches. There is ongoing persecution of Christians who live in Egypt. Christian women are regularly kidnapped and rapped and forced to marry their captors. Also if a Christian does something wrong against a Muslim it is pursued to the full extent of the law, but if a Muslim does something wrong to a Christian the police hardly do anything about it.

I have a freind a work who is Christain from Egypt, he says he will never go back there because of Muslim persecution of Christians. Not to mention the Muslim will hardly ever do bussiness with you if you are not Muslim over there, but they will do it with Western foreigners.

Islam has an enemy by default, and it's Pagans. A Pagan is defined as an enemy of Islam, that is: a person or people that wish to destroy Islam and their beliefs. In that case they are entitled to self-defence.

So if a guy wants to make an anti-Islamic film, it's okay to kill him right?

Jews weren't the enemy in the 30'ies (the hatred versus Jews wasn't isolated to Germany), and Muslims aren't the enemy today.

That's because there was hardly any concentration of jews over there during that time.

This is a quote I think from one of the Hadiths a compilation of the prophet Mohamed's sayings

"The last hour won't come before the Muslims would fight the Jews and the Muslims will kill them so Jews would hide behind rocks and trees. Then the rocks and trees would call: oh, Muslim, oh, servant of God! There is a Jew, behind me, come and kill him."


What were you saying about them not hating the Jews again?

Although most Muslims are peacful, there is definately a problem here. If you want to turn a blind eye and pretend it does not exist, then you may end up like those people in Europe some 60 years ago who thought Hitler wasn't going to be problem.

Originally Posted by "gladius

Although most Muslims are peacful, there is definately a problem here. If you want to turn a blind eye and pretend it does not exist, then you may end up like those people in Europe some 60 years ago who thought Hitler wasn't going to be problem.

Yes I choose to close my eyes, if the alternative is to become a part of "the final solution" to the muslim problem. And that's where the danger lies if we look on Islam in itself as the problem.

Religion is based on interpretations. I've seen a lot of qoutes from the Quoran taken out of context lately, to make it look horrible and scary. I can do the same with the Bible and draw "conclusions" that Christians want to turn the world into a nightmare. But what's the point? Yes, there are groups within Islam that have dangerous views, but to assume that these views is shared by all muslims is... well, like me saying, "Americans are truly dangerous - they dress up in white and kill black people".

But how do you, or Doc S, or anyone else, suggest we should deal with this rising threat?

Good job Dutch guys.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

The problem is not our lack of tolerance. It is their lack of tolerance. Tolerance must work both ways. If it works only one way, and the intolerant one's power is significant, what you have is merely surrender and defeat.

I agree with this. The only reason the Muslims are somewhat tolerant in Europe is they are still (for how long?) the minority, they are forced to be tolerant. If they become the majority, believe me they will not be so tolerant anymore.

Originally Posted by Kick_in_the_eye

Yes I choose to close my eyes, if the alternative is to become a part of "the final solution" to the muslim problem. And that's where the danger lies if we look on Islam in itself as the problem.

Religion is based on interpretations. I've seen a lot of qoutes from the Quoran taken out of context lately, to make it look horrible and scary. I can do the same with the Bible and draw "conclusions" that Christians want to turn the world into a nightmare. But what's the point? Yes, there are groups within Islam that have dangerous views, but to assume that these views is shared by all muslims is... well, like me saying, "Americans are truly dangerous - they dress up in white and kill black people".

But how do you, or Doc S, or anyone else, suggest we should deal with this rising threat?

How do I suggest we deal with this rising threat?

For starters it helps to actually recognize there is a threat.

Also no one here is really advocating "the final solution" to the Muslim problem (you're the only one here who brought this up) if they did I don't share that view. In any case if you choose to live liberal lala land and pretend that everyone gets along, someday the chances are that some jihad driven Islamic radical will apply the Muslim version of "the final solution" to YOU and those you love.

Doc S.
I think the government is only the tip of the ice berg. I think the bigger problem is the society as a whole. If you speak out against anyone such as the Muslims you will be labelled as a Nazi. It doesn't matter what your argument is, you will soon see huge banners with ur face printed on with a Swastika painted over your forehead.
No one in the governments, except for perhaps Vlaams Blok, are willing to speak out against obvious threats. It's not a coincidence that Vlaams Blok are the MAJOR political party of Antwerp, the capital city of Flemish Belgium because the Muslim population there is just huge.
People who deny this is a problem are simply being ignorant. Of course they'll be the first to tell us we're the ignorant ones.
The politicians will speak out against this threat if it will get them elected. They will deny the threat if that gets them elected.
And of course if they have the balls to stand up against the politically correct special interest groups who couldn't care less if their actions lead to hundreds of dead people in the city square, as long as people stay politically correct.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

People who deny this is a problem are simply being ignorant. Of course they'll be the first to tell us we're the ignorant ones.

I totaly agree with your last post, especially here.

The politicians will speak out against this threat if it will get them elected. They will deny the threat if that gets them elected.

Very true.

And of course if they have the balls to stand up against the politically correct special interest groups who couldn't care less if their actions lead to hundreds of dead people in the city square, as long as people stay politically correct.

Its because of this kind of thinking that I believe we will have a war of civilizations. If people wake up now maybe this could be prevented, or at least kept from getting really big. But sadly it may take another 9-11 or Beslan to occur in Europe for people to wake up. Then again maybe this "politically correct" way of thinking is so ingrained into European society that nothing short of an all out war or land invasion of Europe will wake people up. By that time who knows how many millions would have died. Just my thougths on this.

Originally Posted by gladius

Its because of this kind of thinking that I believe we will have a war of civilizations. If people wake up now maybe this could be prevented, or at least kept from getting really big.

This part I can agree with, but not in the same sence as you I believe. Look at A-Q. It started out as a fringe group, and now they are in the spotlight of a whole world. UBL wants to gain ground on his home turf, and the best way he can do this is to paint the world with fear and distrust. If he can polarize "his" people from the rest, the people in the middle east will do what people in trouble always do - they turn to strenght to avoid outside threats. This escalation becomes self-fullfilling, as more and more people choose to paint the world in black and white, the world will become more black and white. The west and middle east is filled with "useful idiots" that is more than willing to play along.

We both invoked Godwins law by bringing the nazi's in to the discussion, so I might aswell continue: Take a step back and look at Europe - muslims are a minority in our society, and they are the weaker part. This is obvious and therefor useless, so what to do? Instill fear of what they might become. Heard this before somewhere? How the muslims are "infiltrating" our society with an evil agenda, how they will use their oil-money for the destruction of our economy... how they will sneak upon us. It's time to wake up! They are flooding our culture and our beliefs like rats, and they won't stop until they have world domination.

And another problem is, that everyone who looks in the mirror will say - "Hey, I am the good guy". And that's true, everyone is until we summarize. Maybe you are right or maybe I am, but as long as I see these connections and how fear will make the calls, I get really bad vibes.

First of all we western people are the majority in Europe at the moment, but we are growing old and we are not having as much births in comparison to our new citizens, so in 50 years from now we will be a minority and that is a scientific fact, you can look it up for yourselfe through illustrated science magazines, however this is a really sensitive question and objective information over the internet is in generall very, very hard to find, because there are so many studies on the subject of integration and how it works when everything is peachy and pink. There are a very low levels of research that counts in religion and crisis scenarios in those integration and minority reports conducted in Europe. Few independent reserchers on this subject because it is a big wall raised on the subject.

But to mention one author, a highly criticism Stephen Beale have lift the subject to the surface on several occasions. The Department of Sociology here in sweden have conducted research on the subject too, I can tell that the nazi stamp or racist is something you have to live with if you want to show the grayscales depicted as a paradise of the perfect world over here in sweden, because over here you are not meant to show the reality even if there is scientific facts supporting your work. This I have learned from people that deals with this subject, not on a daily basis but have university educations in sociology in their backpacks.. if it can help. It is more Important to protect the political correct picture in this part of Europe then tell people about the reality we do live in.

However back to the terrorist deal and then I can only speak about how to deal with the fundamentlist muslim threat in Sweden. I have done extensive research on the subject as a student's work, social studies - study course C-( I have done the the A and B course too ) over here in sweden and I can present some parts of the work in short so now lean back and feel free to look all this facts up for yourselves if you think this is BS too.

In sweden first of all we have two organisations to protect and deal with terrorist threats. The first is SÄPO -Swedish Security Police- and the second one is Nationella Insatsstyrkan -National Task Force- . However SÄPO is based in Stockholm and has 20 offices spread around the country. The National Task Force was establish in 1991 and since 1996 it is based in Stockholm. This force is 50 men strong and they will protect 9 million citizens of Sweden. They are mostly dealing with escaped prisoners over here and this summer they have been busy. *LOL*

Well now the main reason Sweden will have serious problems in the future with these terrorists in Europe and organisations in Sweden ( GIA, Al-Gamaa al-islamiya and Islamic Jihad, Hamas and Iran born Hizbollah togheter with kurdish PKK) is that sweden has not signed two of the 12 UN conventions the two most important ones to fight terrorism on a international level. Since 1973 we have a terrorist law in sweden, as anyone with any reality left in his/her forhead can see that the 1973 law is totaly obsolite, because the terrorists have moved over the boarders. The 1973 Law is only aiming towards foreign citizens not domestic citizens and can thus only be used against foreign citizens.

However in 1991 there have been gradually changes in the 1973 law and this law is called in swedish terms "Lag om särskild utlänningskontroll" (SFS 1991:572) All organisation criterion has been removed, the suspect shall belong to one of our gov suspected terrorist stamped organisations. This law is only dealing with individuals behaviour and all forms of activity that can threaten this countrys security encompass this law, even espionage and unlawful , intelligence activity. *LOL*

As you all understand from this one following organisations based in sweden that is GIA, Al-Gamaa al-islamiya and Islamic Jihad, Hamas and Iran born Hizbollah togheter with kurdish PKK is not belonging to our gov suspected terrorist stamped organisations. I wonder which organisations in sweden that is reacalled as terrorist organisations? Probably it is people like me that are terrorists over here.

Back to the topic, I dont know if Holland have signed the UN conventions that sweden has not signed? What these two most important points in this convention that we have not signed is one of those 1991 UN-conventions -marking of plastic explosives-, this convention is there so it can be more easy to discover these substances in for an example flybagage and so on. We have not signed this convention because it is as they say a complicated legal-technical formality in the swedish law. So dont be to suprised if the next airplain that hits a building in Europe or in Sweden or the US with TNT armed terrorist may be a swedish aircraft.

How do we deal with these Islamic fundamentalists? Well I am quite radical myselfe if you look at me with swedish eyes, but as I see it... We are a democray arent we? And we have laws against racist behaviour? We have laws that makes Mein Kampf practicaly illegal and we have laws that says- Religious Freedom- don`t we? So I say ban Islam from European ground as a dangerous religion or atleast to the boarders of Turky. Make it as dangerous as mein kampf or other nazi, racist behaviour/propaganda because the Islamic religion is inteprented the same way it has been interprented from the very beginning.

It is not integrations with our way to look at human rights, and so on and so on. Right, the bibel has alot of chapters that is inhumane too but the big difference is that we have updated our believes and culture applying to our laws and the 21th century and that is nothing you find in the more radical Islamic groups wich there are many many more of then all the christians fundamentalists toghether. This is my answer on the terrorist, islam, christian, law and rasist, nazi question and the political correct picture and the terrorist war. Better laws in sweden, sign on all the UN-conventions, more resources for SÄPO and tripple our National Effort Force, because they will be much needed in the future. Period.

Cheers:
Doc.S

Anyone wants to see the film? I got the link.