03USMC: "This value set is ingrained in them eithier by religion or personal belief and no amount of PC speak or legislation or regulations ...."

Oh, I absolutely agree. But again it goes back to criminalizing conduct rather than changing a personal belief. I saw a young buck sergeant get busted a rank, and the works for making rather colorful racial comments to a group of black soldiers who belonged to me.

The soldier expressing his views was not mine or in my battalion. However, his LTC called me and my men in to observe the Field Grade Article 15 proceedings. I'd never seen that done before. I can only hazard to guess that the Commander wanted my guys to see that justice would be done. I was surprised that they deemed it worthy of a Field Grade.

Anyway, I doubt the punishment in any way changed the man's opinion of blacks. He did however learn that it would not be tolerated to express them as did every one else in the battalion. It goes back to conduct versus changing beliefs.

And the Supreme Court has yet to rule that homosexuals have a right to serve in the military. So their is still a glimmer of hope for your side, 03USMC. Light a candle and so forth.

Intergration was being slow walked until Korea. It was only fast tracked because of the need to pump replacements into combat depleted units. And I hate to tell ya but it didn't obliarate racism. Racism still exisists in both in your face and subtle forms.

Why? Because like anti gay sentiment it is a value set that is ingrained in some individuals. Yes the military has a better chance at stopping overt displays but it still dosen't control value sets. Your allowed your own values as long as you abide by the regulations and keep your mouth shut if your views conflict. But civvie side your pretty much can speak your mind as long as you don't resort to violence, it's free speech and it's protected in most cases.

Integration is actually a bad example although the PC'ers love it. Gays aren't segregated, this is just used to give the broader agenda a legitament look and piggy backing an actual legitament civil rights movement.

The example of the treatment of blacks in the military is not just about integration. That's carefully avoiding the overall subtreatment of them in the service.

For example, integration had nothing to do with the Court Martial of a Black Lieutenant for refusing to sit in the back of a military bus.

Jackie Robinsons court martial was pre executive intergration order as were a number of race based court martials. It occured during WWII as did a number of similar incidents. Mostly due to the Army and other branches penchant for placing white southern officers in command of black units because they "understood how to deal" with blacks.

Same thing happened in Texas and other southwestern states with latino soliders during WWII. Who incidentally were also assigned to "colored" units at the whim of induction officers.

I'm not avoiding any thing. The repeal of don't ask don't tell is not similar to the integration of the military. Gays are not segregated into seperate units.

My "side" has been stated already. My side is that it's a bad time to put more on the militaries plate. Really I give damn who you screw as long as does not affect the discipline and morale of my unit. But it will be used as a crutch for every slight real or imagined.

But what really gets me is using the military for a broader agenda outside of the military. They can't get a same sex marriage law passed in California of all places so their setting a precedent and using the military to do it in the hopes of getting a precedent setting federal policy or law enacted to trump state statutes.

Well, the only thing the Federal legislatures could do is pass a law saying States didn't have to honor another state's same sex marriage contract or that the Federal Government didn't have to acknowledge them.

They did that, and a Federal Court has found that unconstitutional.

The only other Federal level action would be if the Supreme Court ruled that all people had a right to marriage, same sex or not. I don't think their are any cases working their way toward the SC on that basis. But I could be wrong.

I think for the present you'll see them require states to respect same sex marriage contracts from other states.

If SCOTUS rules in favor of repealing don't ask don't tell and I think they will and allowing gays to serve openly a precedent. It opens it up for more and wider ranging actions to include partners benefits. Same sex marriage would nor necessarily need to be recognized only a legal common law partnership. But thats the agenda and the military is the test case to set the precedant no matter how small. That is what it's about, not the military but a much broader and far reaching agenda.

The recognition of benefits for same sex marriages by federal agencies, like the military, is a done deal unless the SC over turns the current Federal Court ruling. That doesn't mean homosexuals can serve openly. As the current law is written, entering or trying to enter into a same sex marriage is cause for dismissal from service.

The other factor is will congress amend the law to allow homosexuals to openly serve or will the SC find the current law unconstitutional.

Neither of those is guaranteed. No lower Federal Court has yet to make a ruling saying so to this point to be pushed up to the SC. A few cases being presented right now though.

My bet is that 1 year, 10 years, or 20 years from now it will happen, though. It's only a matter of time.

I think it's been stated to death already:

Who you sleep with in your own time is your own business but don't make it an issue while on duty. As I said, serving with gays right now can be fine because they're under orders not to make an issue out of it but once they're allowed to make it an issue, you'll find that FAR less people will find themselves "cool" with having gays in their unit. Living with openly gay people is just a totally different ball game from going to work with them.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

When they get rid of this Don't Ask Don't Tell, the military is going to explode...

From what I've seen on the streets and in the stores, and the general conduct in public it can't get much worse than it is now.

Originally Posted by wolfen

From what I've seen on the streets and in the stores, and the general conduct in public it can't get much worse than it is now.

One of the saddest things about the human psyche is that we never appreciate what we had until we've lost it. Let's not let this PC stupidity go any further.