Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

It has a lot more to do with equal treatment, pixie... People of heterosexual orientation are generally accepted into whatever social circles they care to be in... Homosexuals generally are NOT, though it's becoming much easier for them now because people are realizing that there are bigger issues in the world today than who sleeps with who.

Are you kidding me? People are not accepting them more readily because there are more important things going on, it's because people are getting more and more sissified and worried about hurting anyone's feelings.

When things change not everything changes for the better. Just look at the woman's movement. Did good things happen with that? Yes. But a LOT of bad things also came on the heels of that liberalization of women.

Don't get me wrong, I do not think homosexuals should be looked down on, nor should they be discharged just because they are gay, but if they are running around wearing their sexual orientation on their arm then yes, they should be discharged in my opinion.

And I am firmly standing with my opinion I don't think straight men and women should be forced to bunk/shower/whatever with "open" homosexuals.

Originally Posted by pixiedustboo

Are you kidding me? People are not accepting them more readily because there are more important things going on, it's because people are getting more and more sissified and worried about hurting anyone's feelings.

When things change not everything changes for the better. Just look at the woman's movement. Did good things happen with that? Yes. But a LOT of bad things also came on the heels of that liberalization of women.

Don't get me wrong, I do not think homosexuals should be looked down on, nor should they be discharged just because they are gay, but if they are running around wearing their sexual orientation on their arm then yes, they should be discharged in my opinion.

And I am firmly standing with my opinion I don't think straight men and women should be forced to bunk/shower/whatever with "open" homosexuals.

There is a marked difference between "open" and "flaming".

Originally Posted by Lavite

Unless you live in a cave, Senos, you'd know that homosexuals can serve openly in the forces of Oz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_...vice#Australia

So as far as your country is concerned, the hog is in the pen.

That is no indication whatsoever that this policy enjoys a high degree of acceptance. Not compliance,... acceptance.

I certainly know what the ex CSM of 6 RAR thought of it, and from what I am told, his views are also in accordance with many if not most of his colleagues. It was a political decision that was put in place by the Government, not for the betterment of the service, but for "votes", a truly inspirational way to formulate policy for our country's Defence forces.

Now on a international philosophical debate on the subject, I'd be more than happy to listen to your opinion.

I'm sure you know my opinion already , so what has this last statement to do with the debate?

As third person I would strongly suggest to get over it- it's just a development which has already ended in europe and it won't stop in America. So get it over with- give them their rights and concentrate on real issues- because every normal person doesn't give a damn about the secual behaviour of other people wether it is fetish, gay stuff or ... well I don't want to add anymore examples you know what I mean- basically it's not the problem of others with whom you have intercourse, Europe got that and you will too. And seriously whoever wants to shout out he's gay all the time may do that and will shortly see what happens...

Originally Posted by ObjSRgtLw

As third person I would strongly suggest to get over it- it's just a development which has already ended in europe and it won't stop in America. So get it over with- give them their rights and concentrate on real issues- because every normal person doesn't give a damn about the secual behaviour of other people wether it is fetish, gay stuff or ... well I don't want to add anymore examples you know what I mean- basically it's not the problem of others with whom you have intercourse, Europe got that and you will too. And seriously whoever wants to shout out he's gay all the time may do that and will shortly see what happens...

I'm sure that the homos would just love your reasoning there, but why should we just roll over and accept poor political decisions that impact on those who serve in the forces.

Perhaps normal people don't give a damn,... but in 99.99% of those cases, they are not being forced by circumstances beyond their control to live in close proximity with these weirdos.

Originally Posted by mmarsh

I dont think you can really call it an experiment as gays have served in the Military since the Fall of Troy. Thats over 2000 years. There is no substantial proof that what was true then for the Hoplites is any different for the modern US Military. The idea that homosexuals cannot serve is an idea with as much merit as those that think the earth is flat.

That guys have served, are serving and will serve is not in question. I'm quite positive I have served with gays and am serving with gays, so let me restate my argument and reservations about this........again.

Right now the US Military has more on it's plate than a fat chick at an all you can eat buffet, the attempt to push this thru at this time is ill concieved and ill timed. We are fighting two wars we need to concentrate on that, not on social issues for a special interest group that sees this as an easy route to further a broader agenda outside the military.

Really I don't know how many different ways I can state that.

Well I have to serve with some and it really doesn't affect me at all and I don't know who is gay though they are 'openly' gay but they have no big sign on their forehead. And since you have a lot more experience in life than me you should know that many people are 'weirdos' as you call them.
Look at me I'm defending gay people ^^ who'd ever thought that?
Seriously I don't like the idea that there is a villa near our Military Campus with a rainbow flag in front of it and gay Officers having 'meetings' in it but it's just the way the world is today... to fight against it would mean to end your career and to get lost in a dark area of society (at least in Germany)- so you either accept modern changes or you don't- that's why I will defenitely emigrate at some point of my life.

America is still more religiouse and conservative on it's Island but after Obama already said that he'll change the way gay people are treated in the military that will happen at some point- after all he got a blanko Nobel Peace Price, he must now do something for it ^^

Senos: "...That is no indication whatsoever that this policy enjoys a high degree of acceptance."

I wasn't aware that a professional army acted on the whim of the popular opinion.

As we say in the South: "tough titty".

Across my career, Iv'e seen a whole lot of justification why blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and women are not equal in the service. It has always proven to be b******t.

My first tank crew was a white hill billy from Tennessee, a urban black kid from Detroit, and a Western Mexican kid who couldn't read worth ****. We kicked ass and qualified Expert.

That is what leadership does. Unless you feel that in your neck of the woods you can't produce such results.

I think you will find Senos that your butt never attracted a following.

Originally Posted by Lavite

Senos: "...That is no indication whatsoever that this policy enjoys a high degree of acceptance."

I wasn't aware that a professional army acted on the whim of the popular opinion.

As we say in the South: "tough titty".

Across my career, Iv'e seen a whole lot of justification why blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and women are not equal in the service. It has always proven to be b******t.

My first tank crew was a white hill billy from Tennessee, a urban black kid from Detroit, and a Western Mexican kid who couldn't read worth ****. We kicked ass and qualified Expert.

That is what leadership does. Unless you feel that in your neck of the woods you can't produce such results.

I think you will find Senos that your butt never attracted a following.

It's not the ability to serve thats being questioned. At least by me. It's the timing of this and the BS it's going to inject.

Jesus Cristo. If I ever meet a tread head who's tank didn't score expert I'll buy him a freakin Daniel Webster seegar.

Originally Posted by Lavite

Senos: "...That is no indication whatsoever that this policy enjoys a high degree of acceptance."

I wasn't aware that a professional army acted on the whim of the popular opinion.

Neither should they act on unpopular minority opinion which is what this debate is all about. As we say here in The Deep South of Australia. "Tell it to the Marines Buster".

Across my career, Iv'e seen a whole lot of justification why blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and women are not equal in the service. It has always proven to be b******t.

You can hardly take credit for that, nearly all of what you are saying was well known outside of the US long before you ever did anything about it. In fact i would go so far as to say that active racism was alive and well in the US long after it was here. I know that we australians were taken aback by attitudes in the USN in 1972 when I spent the best part of the year in the US.

That is what leadership does. Unless you feel that in your neck of the woods you can't produce such results.

I don't seem to remember getting any criticism of our training and subsequent work ethic from those we worked with (or for) in the USN. In action or in training (I topped the class at 32nd Street Naval base (San Diego) practice and theory) As a group we also got special mention from the training staff at Treasure Island advanced Damage control and Firefighting Course.

We also managed to give several members iof the USN good cause to remember our nights out.


I've been there and done all of that crap.