Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

Has it ever even occurred to you that some people just think differently than others? Come on, Spike... You know me at least semi-well. You've seen me post here before... Do I sound like the kind of guy who gets brain-washed or someone who wouldn't speak his mind?

I'm not brain-washed, I'm not a pansy... I just feel like I'm not the person to tell two people what they can and cannot do... As long as it's not harming me or anyone else, why not just leave them to their own devices?

When a person passes judgement on another person... That person is claiming to be "better" than the person being judged... At least in certain regards... You say people who support homosexuality have no moral fortitude... I can assure you, I have plenty. I believe in right and wrong... The issue lies with the fact that homosexuality is neither right nor wrong... It just IS.

Look Rob, I have answered nearly all of this in other threads on this subject, you are fully aware of their antisocial attributes as previously discussed, I am not going to repeat myself ad infinitum.

We all (including yourself) pass judgement on nearly every single thing we do, those we meet, and on the things that are done by all of those about us. Your statement about judgement is complete codswallop (for the lack of a more apt term) and totally without basis. You've been reading that "bobble" again, haven't you? To not judge things would leave us without guilt or pleasure and effectively consign us to being psychopaths or morons, of no value to society whatsoever. Without judgement, effectively there is no right or wrong nor anything to measure it against.

03USMC: "The mandates for training will come from advancement groups outside the military. I don't care what anyone says this is only a portion of gay righters agenda..and it's a portion they will use to get their agenda advanced on the backs of the military. "

Outside groups can't mandate anything to the military or any government agency for that matter. All they can do if voice an opinion like any other citizen to their elected officials.

And are you suggesting that this is but the first step in imposing their entire Gay Agenda on the military? Assuming one can point to a list that speaks for the entire homosexual community, what would be on that list that you would object to?

Dtop: "Sure they served but in segregated units which were few and far between."

200,000 black soldiers in the Civil war, four regiments in the Indian Wars, ten regiments in the Spanish American War, and two infantry divisions in World War I, is hardly few and far between.

200,000 black soldiers in the Civil war, four regiments in the Indian Wars, ten regiments in the Spanish American War, and two infantry divisions in World War I, is hardly few and far between.

Exactly how many of those units were integrated? How many of them were allowed to ascend to the officer ranks? The percentage that were "allowed" to fight instead of perform only in support roles was a small number.

The agenda is to focus on "gay rights" outside the military and force the recogniction of same sex marriage etc. Whether or not the majority agrees with it.

They see losing don't ask don't tell as the easiet route. So they'll use the military to further that broader agenda. What I object to is using the military to further a BS agenda.

Really they can't mandate from outside? Right whatever thats why we have all this mandatory instruction now. Thats BS and you know it. Let one little gay supply clerk get his feelings hurt and hide and watch what comes down the pike.

I don't tell me it will be stopped by the brave general and field grades at the pentegon....98% of whom are politcal career protecting yes men. they'll expediate that crap thru the chain to look good
.

You've asked a rather interesting question about blacks in the U.S. military, Dtop. It really deserves it's own thread as it covers a rather long period of history. The best I can do without boring anyone is to just toss out some tidbits.

Although whites officers were typical, blacks did hold commissions as well after the Civil War. The first black to graduate from West Point was in 1877. By the end of World War I, the U.S. army had commissioned over 1,400 blacks. In World war II you did see some black units led by all black officers.

And black officers never had an easy road in the U.S. military. The court martial of 2nd Lt Jackie Robinson, a black, for refusing to sit in the sit in the segregated section of a military bus is a classic example. Of course, he was acquitted and had a stellar baseball career.

As for seeing combat, you'd have to go war by war as to extent. But they did. And blacks were awarded the Medal of Honor in all of them.

You know I had the odd chance of having lived with two gay dudes and two straight dudes in one dorm room in college. I know a lot of folks here have actually worked with gays but I highly doubt many of you have actually lived in close proximity with any in an environment that allowed folks to be openly gay.
Of course in the room of five, I was the only non-white. We all started off as being "cool" with homosexuals but that just changed as the year went on. One of the straight guys just couldn't take the stress anymore and left to live in his frat house. Of course, I was pretty different as well, but no one emerged racist from the whole thing. Actually the only actively racist person in the room was one of the gay guys. He was being a complete a** hole to people and used his homosexuality to shield himself.
How that guy became gay was a strange story upon itself. That guy, on the first day walked in like a real typical Rhode Islander before he came out of the closet and that's when the trouble started happening. It didn't even look like the guy was born gay or anything, he just chose to be one. He never exhibited a shred of homosexuality but it grew as he learned more about his new "culture group."
This is a long story but to cut it short, the following year one of our friends (not roommates) said he was going to room with a gay dude. Both me and the guy who left told him it was a horrible idea. The guy just accused us of being bigots and said he wasn't like us. Next thing you know, he doesn't survive a semester with his gay roommate before packing up and leaving. Said he couldn't take the stress anymore.
What my point is, is that gay culture is EXTREMELY hard and stressful to live alongside. When they are forced to put it aside and not show it in public, it doesn't really cause problems. But when they are "allowed to be gay" in an environment where there really is no escape, the stress is just insane. I stayed for the whole year because there was so much talk about homosexuality that I felt it was a good opportunity to actually observe what they were about.

So I don't really care as to what the PC police have to say.
Openly gay folks are just incredibly stressful to live with.
To give you a better picture for the most part: it's like living with an extremely ugly woman (ugly enough to make you consider abstinence) who is on ultra-extreme PMS 24/7.

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

Chukpike's right. They want equal treatment, not segregation.

Neither do I as far as seeing a dramatic change in the amount of gays in the military... Although I do think any gay man "straight" enough to enter the military would be willing to go into combat.

A gay man "straight enough" ?Rob let em tell you a little story that will make you think that gays are no different form straights in the navy. Sept 1981 U.S.S Nimitz, flight deck fire, real bad one, I was on ahose team and the hose team next to mine got blown away by a explosion, one man grabbed the wild hose and held it on the plane with bombs that was on fire cooling the bombs so they didn't explode, he was in my squadron. on a deployment to Puerto Rico I was again serving with the man, we had flight line watch togeather, we talked as we always did as friends, he was telling how he missed his boyfriend when a man started climbing the fence holding a 9mm , the "gay guy" yanked a 250 lb man off a 12 foot fence and held him on the ground while I called the bas police, Central America, drug wars I can't say where, or what cause I don't know if its still classified or not, but again I served with the same gay man. we weer working on our aircraft cause he was now done with "A" school and worked for me in the AD shop, we also hung out in the same bar back here at home. Anyway a certain drug cartel started shooting at us and one threw a grenade, the "gay guy" picked it up and threw it back, he was shot in the head for stepping out in the open. His name was Jamie, he was my friend.

My point? Gays have been in the military since the dawn of time. the only difference between a gay AD and me is sexual preference. I will gladly and honorably serve with anybody who defends the United States, straight or Gay

Clinton started the don't ask don't tell policy, but ya know what, until then nobody I knew ever bothered to ask or tell, we just served .

Yeah, and I know of a career criminal and "alleged" multiple murderer, that rescued a kitten out of a rubbish bin, I've spoken to him (unknowingly at the time) and thought he was quite a decent sort of bloke, but the fact remains, he's not the sort of person that I would want to work or socialise with.

Wolfen, I didn't mean it in a derogatory way. If you'll notice, I've been sticking up for gay men in the military. I DON'T think they're any different. That's why I put "straight" in quotation marks.


13... I've lived with a gay man as a room mate for 2 years now at a liberal arts college. I think I know better than a lot of people how it is to live with an "openly gay" person. He's one of the best people I know. Very funny, extremely talented, and EXTREMELY intelligent. I've never had ANY problems with his homosexuality... None. CLEARLY it is dependent upon the person, not the sexual preference. I'd appreciate it if you'd not make general statements like that.

It's not a "general" statement if it covers four straight guys I know (including myself) who lived with gay roommates and all four had horrible experiences and at least one of those folks was very liberal.