USMC03 I would argue that there is an element of responsibility when you train someone how to do something and then they go out and do it. Whether or not they complied with YOUR intent of how that training is to be used.

By that "rule" then the Marine Corps is responsible for the death of President Kennedy because they trained Lee Harvey Oswald and the US Army is responsible for the deaths in Oklahoma City because they trained Timothy McVie. I have a short reply to that - in a pig's eye!

And is it still in the pig's eye C7 when the military continues to train Lee Harvey Oswald and Timothy McVie?

I assume you're trying to draw me into a debate about whether or not we know about "misused" training and if we know how culpable we are.

However, since my point was that we are not responsible in the first place, we can hardly be held accountable in a later case.

That being said, if as you suggest, we know of training being "misused" and continue to provide training knowing that that then there would have to be some consideration of the event correct?

In otherwords, Abu Musab al Zarqawi is no John F. Kennedy.

C7 I recognise you are a smart man and I have respect for your views as well as your obvious intellect, I would never try to bait you or draw you into an argument. That comment was as simple as it seems on the face of it- wanting a further clarification of your belief on this matter of training and culpability. I further agree that Zarqwari et al are not Kennedy. As I stated earlier with 03, I am referring specifically to the training of Kopassus troops in Indonesia, prior to and after their documented abuses on the island of Timor and their training prior to and after their documented involvement in the May 98 Anti-Chinese riots they engineered to oust Suharto.

My argument is simple. If you train a man to kill and he kills an innocent, he is guilty. If after the man kills an innocent you continue to train the man how to kill you share guilt with him.

Further, if you sell a country weapons and they kill their own unarmed civilians they are guilty. If after they kill their own unarmed civilians you continue to sell them weapons you share their guilt.

There is legal precedent for both of these counts on a personal level in US law, Indonesian law and the laws of many other countries. As well as the verdicts and the doctrine drawn thereof from the post WWII Nazi war criminal trials.

Originally Posted by bulldogg

Further, if you sell a country weapons and they kill their own unarmed civilians they are guilty. If after they kill their own unarmed civilians you continue to sell them weapons you share their guilt.

Free Trade.

Originally Posted by Damien435

Free Trade.

So with that logic there is nothing wrong with Iran selling nuclear weapons to Syria. No problem with Russia selling chemical or biological agents to North Korea. And while we're at it lets not infringe on the rights of the Palestinian Authority to purchase anything it wants. Am I tracking with your line of thought? Or is this a hypocritical statement rooted in the specious logic that its only ok for the US to engage in "Free Trade"?

Originally Posted by Damien435

Free Trade.

This all sounds fine but just who chose who is to live and who is die, a lot this could come down to whether you had upset some one or written a comment about them in a chat room, or if you had cut them up while driving. With out the full check balances your life would not be worth very much. I worked for a while with a British born Pakistan lad who had more degrees than a thermometer. His parents being very traditional wanted him to have an arranged marriage, so he made a deal with them, he chose his bride and they can arrange it. The wedding was held in Pakistan and the wedding feast went on for 5 days, and being such a large function people attended from all over the place and from all levels of the Government. About half through the feast some of the local villains came in to wish the couple well and in doing so they upset a member of the Government, the next morning when the couple got all villains and people that came with them were hanging from the trees in the road and he found out that for about 75 cents you can have any one killed that you did not like. It works like this just how much do you value your life.

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum...ic.php?t=16801

A new wrinkle.

WoW

How can you call it a democracy if it has Death Squads?

And I also wonder who those 8 voters are