BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
If the RAF had lost the Battle of Britain, could the Royal Navy stop any German invasion?
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Could the Royal Navy alone prevent any German invasion of Britain during 1940?
perseus
Active member
Probably not, assuming the state of the German navy remained similar to that after the invasion of Norway. In fact we can look to Norway and Crete to some extent to examine what it would have been like without air-power. Half decent planning and preparation in any of these cases should have gave the Germans a much Bloodier nose than they actually got, both were Pyhrric victories. They couldn't afford another one.
However, if Germany would have concentrated their resources against Britain rather than attacking the Soviet Union perhaps they could have cut off the convoys, bomb the commercial shipping ports and quickly build Eboats to protect their supplies for a cross channel invasion around 1942. Judging by the complications during D-day, and the stubbornness of the Royal Navy, a landing would have been no easy feat though.
However, if Germany would have concentrated their resources against Britain rather than attacking the Soviet Union perhaps they could have cut off the convoys, bomb the commercial shipping ports and quickly build Eboats to protect their supplies for a cross channel invasion around 1942. Judging by the complications during D-day, and the stubbornness of the Royal Navy, a landing would have been no easy feat though.
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MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I doubt they could have stopped any determined landings by the Germans but they would have caused absolute havoc amongst the landing and resupply vessels which would have been a great leveler on land.
I also believe that when we talk of the RAF being defeated in the Battle of Britain we are really only talking about the Luftwaffe gaining air superiority over the potential invasion areas of southern Britain as they simply did not have the long range fighter available to gain total air superiority, because of this I believe that any landings would have still been contested by the RAF from bases further north.
Chukpike
Banned
Would it have been possible for the Germans to assemble a flotilla basically equal to what the allies used on D day. Then, with the Navy that they had at the time, screen it and supply landing support to the invasion?
I think the British Navy would have played hell with the flotila. I would think the burning ships and constantly shifting of vessels would make it hard for the Luftwaffe to distinguish targets. Especially if destroyers were laying smoke and maneuvering threw the flotilla against lightly protected barges, troop carriers, and supply ships.
I also think the RAF while hurting badly could do a lot of damage to the flotilla while ignoring German war ships.
I think the D Day invasion was infinitely more successful because it was unopposed. There was no significant German Navy or Air Force to do much damage.
I think the British Navy would have played hell with the flotila. I would think the burning ships and constantly shifting of vessels would make it hard for the Luftwaffe to distinguish targets. Especially if destroyers were laying smoke and maneuvering threw the flotilla against lightly protected barges, troop carriers, and supply ships.
I also think the RAF while hurting badly could do a lot of damage to the flotilla while ignoring German war ships.
I think the D Day invasion was infinitely more successful because it was unopposed. There was no significant German Navy or Air Force to do much damage.
Partisan
Active member
The Germans could've attempted it, but look at Operation Sea Lion realistically. It was basically a one way trip, gamble thrust, with limited re-supply, aiming to take London (& therefore all of England?)
Given the situation at the time, the invasion would have established a beach head and porbably got to London - after that who knows? By the way has anyone read SS-GB by Len Deighton, nice take on the possibility.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
A lot of interesting points have been raised.
I think the tenacity of the RN would have made such an impact on invading forces, that such an attack would in all probability fail even if the Luftwaffe had command of the air. But then Monty raised a good point regarding the other groups in fighter command to the north, but also 10 group in the west of England.
However, had the German forces actually managed to get boots on the ground in England, they would have faced tremendous opposistion not only from what ground troops that were left, but from the civil population. Also lets not forget the thousands of WW1 vets who were more then capable of giving a good account of themselves.
I recall a situation during the German invasion of Norway, members of a Norwegian rifle club caused so many casualties among the invading forces, they were forced to pull back and regroup.
I think the tenacity of the RN would have made such an impact on invading forces, that such an attack would in all probability fail even if the Luftwaffe had command of the air. But then Monty raised a good point regarding the other groups in fighter command to the north, but also 10 group in the west of England.
However, had the German forces actually managed to get boots on the ground in England, they would have faced tremendous opposistion not only from what ground troops that were left, but from the civil population. Also lets not forget the thousands of WW1 vets who were more then capable of giving a good account of themselves.
I recall a situation during the German invasion of Norway, members of a Norwegian rifle club caused so many casualties among the invading forces, they were forced to pull back and regroup.
Balkan-MiG
Active member
Dont think so.
Though the British Navy has always been pushing the envelope, it can only go so far.
Without strong, sturdy air support, i dont think the Navy would have been able to stop a large invasion. Though a small-medium one might be a struggle, they could have pulled it off.
Though the British Navy has always been pushing the envelope, it can only go so far.
Without strong, sturdy air support, i dont think the Navy would have been able to stop a large invasion. Though a small-medium one might be a struggle, they could have pulled it off.
senojekips
Active member
They certainly could not have done much about an airborne invasion, a la Crete.
Partisan
Active member
I guess that this is the staunch British supporter in me coming out, with a touch of reality.
Yes the Germans could and would've got boots on the ground.
Could it have been sustained - I think not. I am proud of my nation but do have our down side - stubborn and obdurate amongst them; for this reason I feel that the UK (& I mean all of it) would have been a counter insurgency nightmare to the Germans.
Yes the Germans could and would've got boots on the ground.
Could it have been sustained - I think not. I am proud of my nation but do have our down side - stubborn and obdurate amongst them; for this reason I feel that the UK (& I mean all of it) would have been a counter insurgency nightmare to the Germans.
MontyB
All-Blacks Supporter
I am somewhat the other way, I tend to think that had the Germans got an established beach head and and an airfield or two operational it would have been all over but the shouting for Britain.
Lets face it Ireland would have swapped sides at the first available opportunity.
Lets face it Ireland would have swapped sides at the first available opportunity.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
I dont agree, an underground network would have created havoc for any invading force. As someone once said, "Invading a country is the easy part, holding it is another thing altogether."
Thats a down side? I'd take that as a plus point.
I agree totally.
The South was as you know was officially neutral, although there were a lot of rumours that the South were refueling U Boats. If my memory is correct, a US Army unit in the North threatened to invade the South.
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LeEnfield
Active member
There are many airfields along the South Coast of England now once they had taken one of those they could have flown troops and supplies from France. Now a 30 mile crossing by plane from France would have have been about 20 minutes just think of the men and stores that could have been brought over by a fleet of JU 52 in a day.
Mark Conley
Active member
My answer is yes. The royal navy had the sea resources to take out a German invasion fleet.
Although a majority of the major combatants were sunk later in the war in actions in the south pacific and the Mediterranean sea during the 1940s they actually were in place in the north, and available should the need arise. But what everyone forgets is that the royal navy had a very large supply of submarines, coastal patrol craft, and armed auxiliaries that would have made any crossing rough for the smaller assault vessels. Remember, the big boys were holding down watch on the areas the big German ships (like Bismarck or Scharnhorst) were at to make a break out in the Atlantic. Any movement of the large German ships to support the invasion would have brought these British fleet elements down as well. Some were involved with the capture of Norway, and weren’t really available for the invasion of Britain.
Don’t count out the smaller units of a navy. Combined, they shot down 177 of the attacking German bombers at Dunkirk, and even managed to polish off a few stukas on the way. When placed together for mutual defense, they would have given good account of themselves. And once the ships were among the invasion fleet itself it would have been like terriers among the rats. And when you get in close its harder for an air arm to kill the ships...unless the bombers wanted to kill their own ship as well.
http://www.rusi.org/research/militarysciences/history/commentary/ref:C4538DAE3AB61C/
Try this link to get another’s perspective on just this subject.
Although a majority of the major combatants were sunk later in the war in actions in the south pacific and the Mediterranean sea during the 1940s they actually were in place in the north, and available should the need arise. But what everyone forgets is that the royal navy had a very large supply of submarines, coastal patrol craft, and armed auxiliaries that would have made any crossing rough for the smaller assault vessels. Remember, the big boys were holding down watch on the areas the big German ships (like Bismarck or Scharnhorst) were at to make a break out in the Atlantic. Any movement of the large German ships to support the invasion would have brought these British fleet elements down as well. Some were involved with the capture of Norway, and weren’t really available for the invasion of Britain.
Don’t count out the smaller units of a navy. Combined, they shot down 177 of the attacking German bombers at Dunkirk, and even managed to polish off a few stukas on the way. When placed together for mutual defense, they would have given good account of themselves. And once the ships were among the invasion fleet itself it would have been like terriers among the rats. And when you get in close its harder for an air arm to kill the ships...unless the bombers wanted to kill their own ship as well.
http://www.rusi.org/research/militarysciences/history/commentary/ref:C4538DAE3AB61C/
Try this link to get another’s perspective on just this subject.
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Gebirgsjäger
Active member
The strength of Britain, wasn't only in their Navy, it was their attitude in fighting the air war above their skies. Germany could not launch Unternehmen Seelöwe without superiority over the skies.
Thus, the ability of the RAF, with little human resource, was able to defeat the Luftwaffe in gaining any sort of potential superiority. I think, the lack of strategic imagination on the part of the Luftwaffe command only further helped the Brits prevent invasion. Not to mention that Hitler by that time had already been itching to invade Russia.
Thus, the ability of the RAF, with little human resource, was able to defeat the Luftwaffe in gaining any sort of potential superiority. I think, the lack of strategic imagination on the part of the Luftwaffe command only further helped the Brits prevent invasion. Not to mention that Hitler by that time had already been itching to invade Russia.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Very good link Mark, a lot of information I wasn't aware of.
I was always dubious that the RN could have fought off any landing's by German forces during 1940, not that I doubted the RN's ability to fight, but the lack of air cover. But the link you gave, suggests that the RN could have in effect fought off any invasion.
I would also suggest that British radar used to great effect during the Battle of Britain and the failure to destroy those radar sites by the Luftwaffe, would also have been a tremendous asset to the RN.
Partisan
Active member
Mark Conley, a great piece of research - well done. It backs up my belief (another reason why I like it) that warfare is truly 3 dimensional and you negelct considering any 1 of them at your cost.
I also think that Hitler still believed that GB could be made to reason, so that he could concentrate on his bogeyman - Stalin. It would be interesting to see what overtures he was making throughout this period.
I also think that Hitler still believed that GB could be made to reason, so that he could concentrate on his bogeyman - Stalin. It would be interesting to see what overtures he was making throughout this period.
BritinBritain
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Rudolf Hess springs to mind. Did he fly to Scotland off his own back, or was he ordered to by Hitler?
Another question that springs to mind, a British Army doctor examined the man supposed to be Rudolf Hess in Spandau prison stated empatically that the man was not Hess. Hess was wounded during WW1, the man in Spandau showed no such wound.
redcoat
Active member
The medical report on the wound suffered in ww1 issued on his recovery, showed that the wound area was quite small with a pea sized entry and exit holes ( he was hit with a 6.5mm rifle round ) it would have left little trace after a number of years.