Originally Posted by major liability

I am very lucky I live in America and not say Britain.

Depends to what group you belong to in America, although being white Caucasian doesn't provide immunity from intrusion.

helicopter surveillance over homes and property, road blocks, curfews on young people in cities, CIA/FBI refuse to release documents to defend clients in state courts, FBI peeking at domestic correspondence, being stopped on highways for being black or Hispanic subject to strip searches, immigration holding children in prison conditions for months without informing them of rights, private cooperations recording employees phone calls, voice mail, computer files, email, logs of websites, videotaping them at work, observing them in bathrooms and locker rooms, tracking using bugging. FBI asking librarians to report on books taken out by patrons with foreign sounding names, rejection for housing and employment because of race, appalling conditions in prisons (no need to go to Abu Ghraib, all this happens in US prisons). I've given up on the list this is only about a third. Of course some of this is the case in the UK as well.

Seems to me your freedom is an illusion, but providing the majority feel that way and vote accordingly, the rest can go to hell.

Originally Posted by pixiedustboo

He's saying that how long will it remain purely voluntary?

This particular bunch of shamed politicians who masquerade as our government have a record of rolling on 'voluntary' that quickly becomes compulsory, so that we have hundred's of of governments bodies, kwangos, and private companies who are able to force their way into our houses , if necessary, ( or very large fines imposed )under various excuses, for example, have we been adding worth by good internal home improvements and decorations; do we have a good view from our windows etc? Anything to gain access to more and more detailed info on everyone, some of which they sell. More and more non- police, or non-elected characters can hand out on the spot fines for very minor offences, like a mum whose little girl dropped a tiny piece of a sausage roll that was immediately snatched up by a bird, but drew a fine of £80 or so. This government goes back on all sorts of promises and commitments without shame and spends its time and efforts in manipulation to stay in power. We now have the most unpopular Prime Minister ever, it seems. Meanwhile, major crime flourishes and many of our prisons are fine hotels with everything laid on, including drugs being supplied in , and profits taken on drugs supplied out. Our prison guards complain about this, blame the authorities and say that believe it is now too entrenched for them to do anything to root it out. Many of our streets are very dangerous. My town is not like this, YET.

Our government has just reduced the rate of tax from 22% to 20%, ie 2% and obtained the money by increasing the tax on the very lowest earners, pensioners and those on fixed incomes, from 10% to 20%, ie 10%.

Some stupid people might suggest that this is because the British people are stupid, but I excuse those stupid enough to come up with such stupid simplifications by remembering that they are stupid; I do that 'cos I ain't stupid! He-he.

I didn't say that America was perfect, perseus. There is a LOT of domestic surveillance going on these days, and the powers granted by the Military Commissions Act of '06 and PATRIOT Act are clearly not constitutional (habeas corpus, unlawful search & seizure, etc.). It's also becoming more common to sign your rights away as part of the contract when you get hired. Bad times.

But the only surveillance societies that can match the UK are China and Russia, so think about that.

Yes, I am a white male so racial profiling doesn't affect me.

Originally Posted by major liability

I didn't say that America was perfect, perseus. There is a LOT of domestic surveillance going on these days, and the powers granted by the Military Commissions Act of '06 and PATRIOT Act are clearly not constitutional (habeas corpus, unlawful search & seizure, etc.). It's also becoming more common to sign your rights away as part of the contract when you get hired. Bad times.

But the only surveillance societies that can match the UK are China and Russia, so think about that.

Yes, I am a white male so racial profiling doesn't affect me.

I, for one, understood your take on the matter, Major.

Of course surveillance is a double edged sword. If a camera helps to prevent a genuine terrorist incident or over serious criminal act, especially one affecting ourselves personally we would be pleased. It seems to me it is the way they are used, and the people who use them, rather than the surveillance itself that is the problem. Information gathered for purely political and cooperate interests (left v right and consumer/worker v company) should be outlawed. Moreover, all information should be treated with respect, security guards or officials laughing at couples caught on camera for example is unacceptable. Perhaps the officials should be monitored themselves. Dream on.

Originally Posted by perseus

Depends to what group you belong to in America, although being white Caucasian doesn't provide immunity from intrusion.

helicopter surveillance over homes and property, road blocks, curfews on young people in cities, CIA/FBI refuse to release documents to defend clients in state courts, FBI peeking at domestic correspondence, being stopped on highways for being black or Hispanic subject to strip searches, immigration holding children in prison conditions for months without informing them of rights, private cooperations recording employees phone calls, voice mail, computer files, email, logs of websites, videotaping them at work, observing them in bathrooms and locker rooms, tracking using bugging. FBI asking librarians to report on books taken out by patrons with foreign sounding names, rejection for housing and employment because of race, appalling conditions in prisons (no need to go to Abu Ghraib, all this happens in US prisons). I've given up on the list this is only about a third. Of course some of this is the case in the UK as well.

Seems to me your freedom is an illusion, but providing the majority feel that way and vote accordingly, the rest can go to hell.

But we have to bear in mind that America is in a war situation against enemies sworn to destroy. Always remember the victims ON the Sep 11 planes, as well as those throwing themselves from the top of the towers. That demonstrates how much your human rights mean to those swines. And take into account also that the American government is charged specifically with protecting you. They seem to have done a damn good job so far.

In Britain I am not referring to security measures designed to protect us. The intrusion here is all to do with finding new tax ways to screw the people, to pluck the golden goose even more, to impose authority and compulsion to a degree where so many see their freedoms slipping away.

At the same time, our streets are less and less safe. It seems to me that America's issues are ones of security, and that is how it should be, surely?

And as for your last line Perseus - That's democracy at work, ain't it?

DelBoy

Originally Posted by Del Boy

They seem to have done a damn good job so far.

Authorities often do after the event, but what about prevention in the first place given all the signs and warnings? Whether the West are doing a 'good job' internationally by creating hatred in Muslim communities is more open to debate

Originally Posted by Del Boy

In Britain I am not referring to security measures designed to protect us. The intrusion here is all to do with finding new tax ways to screw the people, to pluck the golden goose even more, to impose authority and compulsion to a degree where so many see their freedoms slipping away.

Having been caught on speed cameras twice when not intentionally speeding I have some sympathy for this view, but perhaps I might feel differently if I wasn't a driver and the mother of a child. Tax infringements are again a double edged sword, are you not in favour of the surveillance of drug pushers, muggers, burglars, deliberate tax avoidance and benefit cheats, since this potentially reduces the pressure to increase taxes and reduces crime for law abiding people? Perhaps a camera has prevented you getting robbed, you will never know.

Originally Posted by Del Boy

At the same time, our streets are less and less safe. It seems to me that America's issues are ones of security, and that is how it should be, surely?

If we take London as an area with high surveillance

• Almost all crime categories (except Trident gun crime) are showing decreases with total notifiable offences as a whole under 900,000 for the first time in the last 10 years.
• The overall sanction detection rate stands at 25%, above the MPA target of 24% and 4% up on the previous year.
• Robberies have not been this low since 2000/01 and have declined by almost 20% since 2006/07 (but business robbery has increased slightly).
• Gun enabled crime is now the lowest since 2000/0 although the MPA 5% reduction target has been missed.
• Residential burglary offences are down slightly on last year and at their lowest level since 1998/99.

Of course we could argue these figures are only reported crime but
perceived crime for the UK as a whole seems to be level or dropping

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6905769.stm

Regardless of its effect on crime or terrorism, I refuse to live in a surveillance society. Soldiers aren't the only ones who have to die for freedom in this day and age. Sometimes regular people who haven't signed up for it must die so that the rest may be free. There's something wrong when you accept being watched at all times as normal. I know if I had the choice of turning America into a constantly monitored country or dying to a terrorist bomb, I'd choose death.

Originally Posted by major liability

I know if I had the choice of turning America into a constantly monitored country or dying to a terrorist bomb, I'd choose death.

Would you make the same choice for your family and friends?

Are you seriously contending that places of business should not have security cameras, what about subways where crime has always been a problem, how about national monuments where everyone with a cause feels the need to make their mark?

It seems that your choice is not whether you are going to be watched or not but rather who is going to do it the government or private security.

Well Hurrah- great news- At the first possible ballot-box opportunity, the UK local council elections, unelected Prime Minister Gordon Brown's Labour Party was swept from power in a political blood-bath.

Here are the figures :-

Conservative - 44%

Liberal Democrat - 25%

Labour - 24%


3rd place. Worst figures for Labour since records began. If these figures were reflected in a national general election, the Conservatives would hold a great majority.

Unfortunately, Gordon Brown, unelected, has been running scared of such an election since he came to power, so we have another 2 years to wait and suffer.

Also removed today was Red Ken Livingstone, Mayor of London, beaten by conservative Boris Johnson.


http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...day-for-labour