Originally Posted by mmarsh

Heres the thing:

BTW the Kings are nowhere near as powerful or dangerous as they once were, their powers were culled through Criminal Prosecution.


When you do hear about a shooting its almost always gang-related. Its rare that a civilian is involved.

No here's the the thing. The above is a load of BS.

1. The Kings O.G.'s and Shot Callers are still running their sets from the Joint. They are still a viable criminal operation on the street that have just adapted a "community out reach" posture and a lower profile on their criminal activities. If you think sending a few O.G.'s and Shot callers to lock up shuts down an organized street gang like the King's, Vice Lords, Norteno's etc You need to come down off the Hard Candy Mountain and take a stroll in my world.

2. Bangers tend to hit a whole lot more innocents than they do rival thugs. I've worked too many scenes where innocents were hit in the cross and the Thug's on eithier side didn't have a scratch. One reason I moved my family to Podunk and out of the city.

3. Until you've got gutter expieriance. You might wanna take the DOJ press releases with a grain of salt.

I have to agree with the above, many gangs, once their leaders are locked up, merely change their "modus operandi" from issuing orders via cell phone to using coded and encrypted messages in letters "to family". Many gangs have actually grown more powerful once behind bars, I think the most notable would be the Aryan Brotherhood, which was founded behind prison walls, has spread to the streets, and is responsible for a quarter of all murders in federal prisons every year. Until we convert Hawaii into a giant prison with no telephone, satellite or postal communications locking up the leaders of gangs will only serve as an inconvenience, not a deterrent.

Originally Posted by 03USMC

No here's the the thing. The above is a load of BS.

1. The Kings O.G.'s and Shot Callers are still running their sets from the Joint. They are still a viable criminal operation on the street that have just adapted a "community out reach" posture and a lower profile on their criminal activities. If you think sending a few O.G.'s and Shot callers to lock up shuts down an organized street gang like the King's, Vice Lords, Norteno's etc You need to come down off the Hard Candy Mountain and take a stroll in my world.

2. Bangers tend to hit a whole lot more innocents than they do rival thugs. I've worked too many scenes where innocents were hit in the cross and the Thug's on eithier side didn't have a scratch. One reason I moved my family to Podunk and out of the city.

3. Until you've got gutter expieriance. You might wanna take the DOJ press releases with a grain of salt.

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You need to reread what I wrote again, I said in NYC. Not nationwide, and certainly not in Prison. I am very well aware that in other cities, its not the same.

And the reason the Kings in NYC dont really bang as much as they used to of a huge 1998 police crackdown and because a few years ago because the Dominicans came pushed them out. The Kings still exist, but their hellraiser days are done. I absolutely stand by what I said.

Those other gangs you mention (Vice Lords and Norteno) are not even NYC based gangs. Norteno is Northern California and the Vice Lords is Chicago. Most Hispanics in NYC come from Puerto Rico, not Mexico. The Mexican gangs are here in small numbers but they showed up after my time growing up, but I have friends in the NYPD that say that they don't have the organization or the strong community roots. The worst we got now is MS-13 and they have been in nonstop gangwars (with several different gangs) since they got here.

So I think I am better suited to tell you what goes on in my hometown than you. And yes, I have some experience in the street, mostly growing up around it.

Read this it gives you alittle history.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/arts/features/n_8118/

Having recently attended a gang seminar sponsered by the NYPD & NYCDOC in realtion to street gangs and Prison gangs. I'm still callin BS on your supposed vast knowledge of street gangs in the NYC. I'll go with what the Coppers and C.O.'s who actually work gangs. Tell me. Not what you've read in a magazine or newspaper.

And they say the King's are viable. They say you have Norteno's. They say you have Sureno's, They say you have MEMA. And by the way you also got a helluva lot of Mexicans. Bein from NYC you probably just automatically think they are Puerto Rican.

And finally having spent five years in a Gang Unit in a Metropolitan Police Dept. I think I might know a little something about the Gang Scene across the board. Because wonder of wonders we trade info.. So unless your banger that wants to flip then I suspect you can tell me very little about the "Thug Life" that would be of any value or validity. What you've read or seen in "Colors" don't count.

So I'll stand by my evaluation of BS.

Originally Posted by 03USMC

Having recently attended a gang seminar sponsered by the NYPD & NYCDOC in realtion to street gangs and Prison gangs. I'm still callin BS on your supposed vast knowledge of street gangs in the NYC. I'll go with what the Coppers and C.O.'s who actually work gangs. Tell me. Not what you've read in a magazine or newspaper.

And they say the King's are viable. They say you have Norteno's. They say you have Sureno's, They say you have MEMA. And by the way you also got a helluva lot of Mexicans. Bein from NYC you probably just automatically think they are Puerto Rican.

And finally having spent five years in a Gang Unit in a Metropolitan Police Dept. I think I might know a little something about the Gang Scene across the board. Because wonder of wonders we trade info.. So unless your banger that wants to flip then I suspect you can tell me very little about the "Thug Life" that would be of any value or validity. What you've read or seen in "Colors" don't count.

So I'll stand by my evaluation of BS.

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You can stand by whatever you wish, the fact remains you have never lived in my community, and unless you have lived in NYC for at least awhile you don't know anything. Its that simple. I experienced it firsthand, you didn't.

Which is exactly why I don't pretend to know what goes on in LA or Detroit, I haven't a clue. And I am not going to tell someone who lives there that hes full of s*** because he said something different that I heard. For a person who has never lived in NYC calling BS on a 28-year resident shows a amazing amount of arrogance, especially considering that your sole evidence to back yourself up so far is your "I-know-better-than-you-so-shutup" response. If you expect me just to take your word for it...sorry I just don't.

You have said Mexicans gangs are huge, well thats curious statement because Mexicans only make up about 6-8% (400000-600000 people) of all Hispanics in NYC. Generally gangs prefer staying where there is a ethnic community. Puerto Ricans are about 35-40% of the Hispanic population followed next by Dominicans, and probably the various Central American Ethnic Groups (Salvador, Nicaruagua, etc) in between, THEN its the Mexicans.

Its kind of difficult to have large Mexican gangs when their is a tiny community to support it. And sure enough there are only 2 major gangs and they are small. There of course other minor ones.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10282007...ork.htm?page=0

You'll notice that there are only 2 Mexican gangs on that list, Vasta Locos and Ninos Malos and they both have less than 300 members...combined. That makes them pretty goddamn insignificant if you look at the rest of the list.

In NYC, the Dominicans have much greater influence than the Mexicans do. They are political, and their community is enormous. There is a huge Dominican parade every year, DDP and Trinitos is a serious issue, they also have the Cocaine trade, as South America drug cartels uses the Dominican Republic as a transfer point.

In NYC you cannot even find a decent Mexican restaurant, thats how sparse the community is.

When you think about NY Gangs you think Crips, Bloods, Latin Kings, DDP, Decepticons, Flying Dragons, MS-13, amongst many others almost none are Mexican. And for the record, I never said the Latin Kings weren't viable, (again, you need to read before commenting) I said they weren't as powerful as they once were and that their power is diminished. Thats just a fact. Just research the aftermath on the arrest of King Tone in 1998. There were subsequent roundups as well later on in 2005 I believe.

To answer your question of where I get my information. therein lies the big difference between us, I didn't have somebody else tell me anything, Personal Experience has been my teacher. Like many people I went to HS in NYC where gangs was a very real danger. In fact our HS guidance counselor usually spent a few days at the beginning of each year warning us about them. This was back in the day before metal detectors where shootings at school was commonplace (never at mine, but at the HS next door it was common). There were gang members in my class, some even carried guns to class. I used to see others on the street all the time, there was a time I could guess who they were (the affiliation). I could tell if they were chill or if I should cross the street quickly. I got jumped by them twice, with two butterflies presented at my face. I knew never to look them directly in the eye, never show anything they might want, and to be very careful of what I said. I have experienced two gang related shootings at the Public HS next to mine. All of this was about 17 years ago. My father has some experience in Criminal Defense involving gang violence cases (although is not a criminal defense lawyer). I have 2 friends who are now NYPD officiers. One is a NYPD Police Captain dealing with Asian gangs in Chinatown. And yes occasionally I read things too, it makes me smarter.

Oh and incidentally the film "Colors", is about gang life in LA, not NYC. Perhaps you know "the gutter" in your community (I sure as hell don't), but you sure as hell don't know mine. Lets just leave it at that.

We Should get back to subject so that will be my last comment here, drop a PM if you want to talk further.

That sucks mmarsh, there was an apartment building full of Latin Kings (who would regularly come out onto the street and flip off random people in groups of 30) across the street from me, but they were pretty chill... wasn't scared at all walking through their gathering at 11PM... But then I knew some of 'em.

I think I'll take the cops' words on this.

MMarsh: You keep stating "when I lived there".

Question: How long has it been since you have lived there for more than a few months?

You state you lived there for 28 years. How long have you worked/lived in France now?

I was a permenant NYC resident until 1998. Now I am only part time, when I go back a few months every year.

But remember, when I was grewing up gang violence was much, much, worse. Crime (and espicially violent crime) has been on the decrease starting in the mid-1990s during the early Guiliani Reign. In 1989 the was 2500 murders in NYC, in 2007 less than 500. If crime had gone up, then'd I would agree with you and say that my info is out-of-date, but it has steadily decreased since my departure. You can physically tell too, most of the gang hangouts I used to avoid got bulldozed, with Starbucks and the GAP taking their places. I am not saying the Kings are gone, or that there arent Mexican gangs, you'll find them if you know where to look. What I am saying is that the power and the "reign of terror" that these Latino gangs in NYC once had is over.

Any New Yorker who lived will say exactly the same thing, you had to have been there to know.

Been looking but perhaps I am searching with the wrong keywords. I would like a side by side comparison of the Police per capita vs the crime rate in the various cities mentioned here. Anyone able to provide me a link?

I found something like it here for 1998: http://www.ibo.nyc.ny.us/iboreports/crimerep.html

But it is 1998.

One thing to note: Doesn't it seem logical that with more police officers on the streets and handling paperwork there would be less crime as more and more people got caught? This would deter alot of would be criminals (misdemeanor or felony).