Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Basically it goes down to this: before I used to change my mind and re-think my opinions based on discussions with others. Now I've decided not to do that anymore.

Well give it a few weeks and then let us know whether ignorance is really bliss.

The process of learning means that we have to listen and evaluate others opinions even if they are distasteful or poorly thought out because if we didn't the world would still be flat, we would be living in caves and stoning some guy for recommending fire and the wheel.

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

So homosexuals are somehow a different type of human being than you or I?

Without a doubt, I just don't know whether it is the result of poor breeding, a mental problem or a poor choice of lifestyle.

But if you were like me, my beliefs would be your beliefs, and it wouldn't make you insecure.

All that proves is that I could never think like you in regard to this subject.

Enjoy your breakfast.

I did, and now I'm going to have a late lunch. I'll enjoy that too.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Well give it a few weeks and then let us know whether ignorance is really bliss.

The process of learning means that we have to listen and evaluate others opinions even if they are distasteful or poorly thought out because if we didn't the world would still be flat, we would be living in caves and stoning some guy for recommending fire and the wheel.

Now this truly is the pot calling the kettle black, Mr. I'm Right, Even if I'm Wrong.

Originally Posted by Chukpike

Despite what you think should be. The simple truth is the mass population has the right to decide. Remember, "We the people"

Yes, I know, but it doesn't define what the people have the right to decide... Do the people have the right to decide what clothes to wear? Do the people have the right to decide what type of car to drive? No. The people do not affect personal lives of one another. And this case should be no different. Homosexuals getting married would NOT affect anyone adversely, so there is no reason to be opposed to it. We the People is NOT the be all end all argument of law.

Originally Posted by Chukpike

I agree the States cannot decide for the people. The State gives nothing to the people, they all ready have the authority. This is a Democracy.

Again, the States gave the right to the people when they put it up for a vote. Now, as far as the people already having the authority, the people do NOT have ultimate power in a democracy. Like I just said, they don't control other's personal affairs.

Originally Posted by Chukpike

Thank you but this doesn't answer the statement you made:

Quote Rob Henderson, "but homosexuals are becoming a larger and larger portion of our population,"

Where did the data come for this?

From the data you did give I found where the population in 2000 was 281.4 million people. The number of gay and lesbians was estimated at 4.3 million. That works out to 1.53% of the population. I would still like to see the data to support your statement "larger and larger portion of the population".

I was surprised at such a small percentage of the population being gay. I have seen data from Gay and lesbian organizations that imply a higher percentage. Apparently they are not above exaggeration.

So 4.3 million people isn't a lot? Tell me, how many died during the Holocaust?

By the way, if you read the quote in it's entirity, it says that not ALL the homosexuals in the country were counted, because they are only counting those heading a household... The 4.3 is merely an extrapolation... There could be more, there could be less... The Census does not ask any questions that define a person's sexuality distinctly, so we'll never know how large the population truly is...

"Census 2000 counted 601,209 same-sex unmarried partner households in the United States. That is a 314 percent increase from 1990 when the census counted only 145,130 same-sex unmarried partner households."

http://www.urban.org/publications/1000491.html


...... I'd say 314% is a PRETTY big jump in size.....



To senojekips: Quite honestly, if you REALLY feel like homosexuals are somehow a different species, then maybe it's YOU with the mental problem... Homosexuals and heterosexuals, outside their sex lives, are the same type of people... They have the same needs, similar wants, the same basic humanistic traits... You cannot say that just because of a lifestyle choice that they are somehow different.

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

To senojekips: Quite honestly, if you REALLY feel like homosexuals are somehow a different species, then maybe it's YOU with the mental problem... Homosexuals and heterosexuals, outside their sex lives, are the same type of people... They have the same needs, similar wants, the same basic humanistic traits... You cannot say that just because of a lifestyle choice that they are somehow different.

You are quite the master at misquoting,. Where might I ask did I say a different species?

This type of deliberate misrepresentation is not doing your argument any good at all, as everyone can see that you need to do it to build up an otherwise weak case. I'm bloody sure I can say that they are different, if I thought that I was anything like them I would neck myself,... as many of them do.

You said they are different human beings... All human beings are the same. If I took a picture of a naked homosexual man and a heterosexual man, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference, would you?

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

Yes, I know, but it doesn't define what the people have the right to decide... Do the people have the right to decide what clothes to wear? Do the people have the right to decide what type of car to drive? No. The people do not affect personal lives of one another. And this case should be no different. Homosexuals getting married would NOT affect anyone adversely, so there is no reason to be opposed to it. We the People is NOT the be all end all argument of law.

Unfortunately you might be right if the California Supreme Court overrides the vote of the people again. Then I will know the American experiment is dead.
"government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth". Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

Again, the States gave the right to the people when they put it up for a vote. Now, as far as the people already having the authority, the people do NOT have ultimate power in a democracy. Like I just said, they don't control other's personal affairs.

No the state did not give the people the right to vote on the issue. The people signed a petition with enough signatures to have it placed on the ballot. And in the United States the people are supposed to have the ultimate authority.

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

So 4.3 million people isn't a lot? Tell me, how many died during the Holocaust?

I never said it was a small number, I only said it represented 1.53% of the population.

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

By the way, if you read the quote in it's entirety, it says that not ALL the homosexuals in the country were counted, because they are only counting those heading a household... The 4.3 is merely an extrapolation... There could be more, there could be less... The Census does not ask any questions that define a person's sexuality distinctly, so we'll never know how large the population truly is...

I did read it and that figure was the high end of the extrapolation. Seems you are very careful to not to use the part of the data that won't support your contention.

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

"Census 2000 counted 601,209 same-sex unmarried partner households in the United States. That is a 314 percent increase from 1990 when the census counted only 145,130 same-sex unmarried partner households."

http://www.urban.org/publications/1000491.html


...... I'd say 314% is a PRETTY big jump in size.....

The U.S. Census Bureau maintains that the 1990 and 2000 censuses cannot be compared because of flaws in the way they classified such households in 1990.
The above statement was taken from the article Rob got his 314% from.

Once again Rob left out the data that would expose his contention as inaccurate.

There is an attitude growing in the US that supports an anything goes philosophy. Changes will come in the future. As long as people are allowed to vote I will continue to vote my values.

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

You said they are different human beings... All human beings are the same. If I took a picture of a naked homosexual man and a heterosexual man, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference, would you?

I say again, "where did I say a different species". You are deliberately trying to overstate my case, to make it look bad, but it does not work.

They are different, very much so, just as you are different to a certifiable lunatic or a pathological liar. If you were all in the raw I couldn't tell the difference? But don't even bother trying to tell me that you are "the same".

I can't tell if a power wire is live or dead by looking at it, but try touching it, you will soon notice the difference. Just because things may look the same has no bearing on this debate whatsoever.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Trust me I know how uncomfortable it is, the wife still has hysterics about me helping a blind friend across a street, he grabbed my arm and apparently all the way across the street I was leaning as far away as possible and rigid as a board but this was my problem caused by my social conditioning that "guys don't generally touch each other in any way shape or form".

What, dont you even shake hands? lol

Originally Posted by Chukpike

Unfortunately you might be right if the California Supreme Court overrides the vote of the people again. Then I will know the American experiment is dead.
"government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth". Abraham Lincoln

I have a feeling that if this was on an issue you stood FOR, you would be all for the rights of the individual. I'm not saying that every issue should be up to an individual person.... That COULDN'T happen in the United States. But in matters such as these, I believe that the mass populous should have no say. It shouldn't be up to "the people" as to what goes on in a home.

Originally Posted by Chukpike

No the state did not give the people the right to vote on the issue. The people signed a petition with enough signatures to have it placed on the ballot. And in the United States the people are supposed to have the ultimate authority.

Well, I can't argue with a petition... Only say that, once again, I don't think that should be the kind of thing put up to the majority. Tom has no right to say what should or should not go on in Steve's house, unless it is illegal activity.

Originally Posted by Chukpike

I never said it was a small number, I only said it represented 1.53% of the population.

Then what did you mean by

I was surprised at such a small percentage of the population being gay.

That seems rather cut and dry as far as saying "small number"....

Originally Posted by Chukpike

I did read it and that figure was the high end of the extrapolation. Seems you are very careful to not to use the part of the data that won't support your contention.

It's written in the section of the article I posted, same as the other figures, if you read it, then you know it... I didn't cut and paste....

Originally Posted by Chukpike

The U.S. Census Bureau maintains that the 1990 and 2000 censuses cannot be compared because of flaws in the way they classified such households in 1990.
The above statement was taken from the article Rob got his 314% from.

Once again Rob left out the data that would expose his contention as inaccurate.

There is an attitude growing in the US that supports an anything goes philosophy. Changes will come in the future. As long as people are allowed to vote I will continue to vote my values.

Again, I did NOT leave out anything as seen HERE

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

"The census forms did not include any questions regarding sexual orientation, making it impossible to compile data comparing heterosexual and homosexual populations.

AKA that figure could be COMPLETELY INACCURATE. But as there is NO official data on the subject until 2072 because of the privacy laws of a census, we won't know for sure until then.




To senojekips: I said they are human beings just like you and I. On a basic level, they are the same as me. They're the same as you too, regardless of whether or not you want to admit it. Granted, once we start layering the cake, they start to spread out, but you cannot deny that they are the same on a few levels. Spike, I asked you

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

So homosexuals are somehow a different type of human being than your or I?

And your responce was

Originally Posted by senojekips

Without a doubt, I just don't know whether it is the result of poor breeding, a mental problem or a poor choice of lifestyle.

Now, how can you say you DIDN'T say they were different types of HUMANS? They are certainly different types of people, sure. But not HUMANS. Human beings are all the same.