Originally Posted by senojekips

It is a legitimate question, because of the fact that love cannot be succinctly defined, it really cannot be used as a criteria for marriage. Marriage more than anything is no more than a legal state, either declared by the physical act of marriage, or undeclared as in common law relationships, as it's former religious meaning has long since lost any meaning.

Eventhough I hate to admit it.... you have a very good point there mate! Damn...... what to say?

The homos in Australia wanted it to be included in the educational syllabus as a viable alternative to heterosexuality.

But isn't it a viable alternative? If it wasn't, then there wouldn't be any gays and this discussion naught. Pretending that "they" don not exist doesn't solve it. Informing people that some prefer same sex relations is called realism.
Actively trying to turn people does not work. If it would then there would be hordes of them. But by that ratio, then kids would buy everything that the telephone marketeers want them to buy.

Originally Posted by Ted

Eventhough I hate to admit it.... you have a very good point there mate! Damn...... what to say?

Well Ted, at least I know you are bright enough and honest enough to give my posts your honest attention. I hope that i'm doing the same to yours.

But isn't it a viable alternative? If it wasn't, then there wouldn't be any gays and this discussion naught. Pretending that "they" don not exist doesn't solve it. Informing people that some prefer same sex relations is called realism.
Actively trying to turn people does not work. If it would then there would be hordes of them. But by that ratio, then kids would buy everything that the telephone marketeers want them to buy.

I don't care what they do in private, but the instant they try to change society's values to suit their anti social lifestyle, I will say my piece.

I do not support many of today's politically correct values, this is only one of many, and I do that because I feel that it will retard the progress of man's civilization. I would also actively resist the recognition of witchcraft as a viable alternative to modern medicine (imperfect as it is) and any of a hundred other things that are non productive and will end up costing society dearly.

Like homosexuals, telemarketers work on the premise that if they get one sale out of a hundred calls they have done their job. Attempts at "cleaning up" the image of homosexuality works on the same principal. All they need is one easily led or otherwise "weak minded" individual and they have had a win.

Spike, forget it. They've already made up their minds and it doesn't matter how well you present your idea. It just doesn't matter.
It's something I've learned in more recent times. People form their ideas and will not change their minds, at least in the larger context of things, especially if it becomes a conflict. It's a bit why I'm less likely to change my mind now as well. It doesn't seem to matter whether I'm right or wrong to other people, so why the heck should I listen and back down in any argument anyway?
On this matter, I ask, how many of you have actually LIVED with gay people that isn't related to you? I lived with two, and I knew this one other guy who also lived with a gay guy (though he was straight). Believe me, I see right through the political correctness crap. In fact, BEFORE I lived with them, I had an open mind towards homosexuality. No, I wasn't into that sort of stuff but it was something I thought was just a part of life and nothing more and nothing less. Boy was that an enlightening experience.

LMFAO!!! Hahahaha! "They" Like we're some kind of outcasts for believing in acceptance of human beings...


And by the way 13, I don't see you all changing your minds any time soon... Perhaps Ted and I could start our own little alliance.


PS, my room mate is gay... Though "it doesn't matter, they've already made up their minds."



Senojekips:

I'll give you the attention to your posts as soon as you give them to mine...

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

...because other than their sex lives, THEY ARE NO DIFFERENT.

So yes, they are the same as me, other than their sex life. They need the same basic needs, food clothing shelter.. They have feelings, they think...

Originally Posted by senojekips

Insecurities???... of course you jest. If I were insecure I would be like yourself and just letting this matter slide. One thing I am not,.. is insecure, you can safely bet next years wages on that. Other than that, you miss the point entirely, I don't expect to stop it on my own, but I will certainly express my opinion in the vain hope that I might enlighten just one person to what is going on.

As for bringing god into it, well,... that might explain your lack of grip on reality. I'm sorry, but if you are going to wait for god, you might find yourself severely disappointed as he has a notoriously poor record in such matters.

Courage???? they have the same courage as any greedy group of social misfits trying to get what they can out of the system. You mistake greed for courage.

Thereby calling ME insecure? Oh no, again, YOU must jest... To say that because of insecurities is WHY I'm letting the matter slide... Haha. Rather, I'm so completely secure that it doesn't bother me what other people do... Again I pull the "Before reaching to pull the speck out of your neighbors eye, be sure to remove the plank in your own" quote, but I'm sure the Bible doesn't hold much sway with you... Doesn't matter, the point remains the same... Make sure YOU'RE perfect *cough* before you start criticizing others.


Seno, let's take a hypothetical for a second... Say God truly does exist... We know for sure, and there are two more people wanting to enter His kindgom... A homosexual (John) and a heterosexual (Jim). Now, if John's biggest sin is lying, and Jim's biggest sin is...say... Murder, which one do YOU think God is going to let into Heaven?? In today's society, the biggest problems in the world are not anti-social sexual behaviors... There are MUCH more important matters in the world to be dealt with. Enlighten someone on the fact that drugs can kill, or that little girls being raped is WRONG. Homosexuality appears much more "tolerable" after looking at it from that aspect.

You say greed, I say FIE. Greed is seperating and not filing the paperwork to continue drawing marriage support. Courage is coming out to your father, who happens to have homophobia. Risking that you will never talk to the man who raised you "to be a good boy." Courage is willing to risk being mocked, ridiculed, and even abused because of something you PROBABLY didn't want to happen in the first place... I know my room mate would be just fine straight, he just doesn't find the attraction there.

Originally Posted by senojekips

We have already seen our social and legal system distorted by similar reasoning based on political correctness, whereby our criminals can now sue the people they have committed, or attempted to commit crimes against. This ludicrous issue will turn to bite us similarly.

How is this going to "bite us"? How is letting two people of the same sex get married the same as criminals suing against victims?!

Originally Posted by senojekips

I think your time would be better spent looking at what this is doing to our society, and who is going to end up paying for it. The social disruption it will cause is reason enough to ban it out of hand.

I find myself answering all manner of questions here, that I've already given my reasoning on, so rather than start repeating myself I urge you to go back through my posts and find the answers for yourself.

There are over 200 posts on this thread. I'd rather not go back and find your references to where you are knowledgeable on homosexual sex ed. Or is that something to "razzle dazzle" me into thinking that you actually know something about it? Because, quite frankly, I think you're as ignorant on the topic as I am.

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

.. Please give some documentation to support this point, Del Boy.

No Rob, I said that the teaching of homosexuality as just an alternative life-style to heterosexual marriage to INFANTS at school was an encouragement. I said nothing about force. I am talking of political persuasion imposed upon vulnerable kids.

Do you really want me to develop this viewpoint ? Let me know, here , and I will do my best.

That's what I wanted documentation of... The teaching of ANY sexual education to infants. Homosexual OR heterosexual.

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

I'll give you the attention to your posts as soon as you give them to mine... So yes, they are the same as me, other than their sex life. They need the same basic needs, food clothing shelter.. They have feelings, they think...

Now that's an astounding piece of logic. They are the same,... but in the same sentence you admit they are different??? I'll find that point hard to devote my attention to.

Thereby calling ME insecure?

That is purely your assumption.

Oh no, again, YOU must jest... To say that because of insecurities is WHY I'm letting the matter slide... Haha. Rather, I'm so completely secure that it doesn't bother me what other people do... Again I pull the "Before reaching to pull the speck out of your neighbors eye, be sure to remove the plank in your own" quote, but I'm sure the Bible doesn't hold much sway with you... Doesn't matter, the point remains the same... Make sure YOU'RE perfect *cough* before you start criticizing others.

I never mentioned the fact of your supposed insecurity. If you bother to read my post you will see that all I did was clear my own yardarm regarding this matter, this is your own assumption. Is there a reason for this? Do you feel guilty about something? Believe me, no one is perfect Christians perhaps more than most. I am a pragmatist not a believer in fairy stories. Fairy stories never make a good basis for any kind of argument.

Seno, let's take a hypothetical for a second... Say God truly does exist... We know for sure, and there are two more people wanting to enter His kindgom... A homosexual (John) and a heterosexual (Jim). Now, if John's biggest sin is lying, and Jim's biggest sin is...say... Murder, which one do YOU think God is going to let into Heaven?? In today's society, the biggest problems in the world are not anti-social sexual behaviors... There are MUCH more important matters in the world to be dealt with. Enlighten someone on the fact that drugs can kill, or that little girls being raped is WRONG. Homosexuality appears much more "tolerable" after looking at it from that aspect.

Let's not as it is totally pointless. I'm not into making hypothetical judgements based on a pretend person who lives in the sky. It is "reasoning" such as this that discredits your argument completely. Lets stick with the facts, such as we know them to be.

You say greed, I say FIE. Greed is seperating and not filing the paperwork to continue drawing marriage support. Courage is coming out to your father, who happens to have homophobia. Risking that you will never talk to the man who raised you "to be a good boy." Courage is willing to risk being mocked, ridiculed, and even abused because of something you PROBABLY didn't want to happen in the first place... I know my room mate would be just fine straight, he just doesn't find the attraction there.

Greed is wanting that to which you are not entitled. If I wish to be anti social, the stigma it carries is no one's fault but my own.

How is this going to "bite us"? How is letting two people of the same sex get married the same as criminals suing against victims?!

In the future i have no doubt that our system will be just as litigious as it is today, if not worse, we will have people sueing the Government for ever having opened up this totally unrealistic can of worms. The first case I can see will involve some person who was "adopted" by homos, then eventually wakes up to the fact that (s)he has been raised with a false idea of how the world really works. Hell, the government have been dragged into court for far less, and lost. We already have enough "screwed up" kids.

There are over 200 posts on this thread. I'd rather not go back and find your references to where you are knowledgeable on homosexual sex ed. Or is that something to "razzle dazzle" me into thinking that you actually know something about it? Because, quite frankly, I think you're as ignorant on the topic as I am.

Well, I've read them all, and I know what has already been debated, that's why I'm not willing to keep repeating myself. If you want to be taken half way seriously you should have the decency to do the same instead of dropping into the middle of a thread and expecting others to chase after you answering material that has already been covered.

Also, IF you bother to read my post, nowhere do I state that I know anything about homosexual education, other than the fact that I see it as another way homos are trying to gain credibility and gain recognition as a viable alternate lifestyle.

You got it Rob - backed up by police you will see.

Just a start - the louder you scream, the faster I go.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-373145/Lessons-gay-history-pupils-aged-seven.html


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-457047/The-schools-pupils-aged-learn-gay-lifestyle.html


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-441542/Four-year-olds-gay-fairytales-school.html



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-511209/Dont-say-mum-dad--teachers-told-assume-pupils-heterosexual-parents.html

Originally Posted by Del Boy

You got it Rob - backed up by police you will see.

Just a start - the louder you scream, the faster I go.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-373145/Lessons-gay-history-pupils-aged-seven.html


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-457047/The-schools-pupils-aged-learn-gay-lifestyle.html


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-441542/Four-year-olds-gay-fairytales-school.html



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-511209/Dont-say-mum-dad--teachers-told-assume-pupils-heterosexual-parents.html

I see a lot in those articles teaching kids about the homosexual lifestyle which is vastly different to teaching kids to be homosexual which seems to be your inference.

From what I see all four of those articles are about campaigns teaching an understanding of diversity which I do not see as a bad thing, hell perhaps if the a religious version was taught maybe we would have a lot less people blowing themselves and others up around the world.

Originally Posted by the_13th_redneck

Spike, forget it. They've already made up their minds and it doesn't matter how well you present your idea. It just doesn't matter.
It's something I've learned in more recent times. People form their ideas and will not change their minds, at least in the larger context of things, especially if it becomes a conflict. It's a bit why I'm less likely to change my mind now as well. It doesn't seem to matter whether I'm right or wrong to other people, so why the heck should I listen and back down in any argument anyway?
On this matter, I ask, how many of you have actually LIVED with gay people that isn't related to you? I lived with two, and I knew this one other guy who also lived with a gay guy (though he was straight). Believe me, I see right through the political correctness crap. In fact, BEFORE I lived with them, I had an open mind towards homosexuality. No, I wasn't into that sort of stuff but it was something I thought was just a part of life and nothing more and nothing less. Boy was that an enlightening experience.

I see the pot is still calling the kettle black.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Now that's an astounding piece of logic. They are the same,... but in the same sentence you admit they are different??? I'll find that point hard to devote my attention to.

I said other than their sex lives... No two people are exactly the same... You're nitpicking, Spike.

Originally Posted by senojekips

That is purely your assumption. I never mentioned the fact of your supposed insecurity. If you bother to read my post you will see that all I did was clear my own yardarm regarding this matter, this is your own assumption. Is there a reason for this? Do you feel guilty about something? Believe me, no one is perfect Christians perhaps more than most. I am a pragmatist not a believer in fairy stories. Fairy stories never make a good basis for any kind of argument.

Again, I bothered to read your post, and you DID call me insecure. You said and I directly QUOTE: "If I were insecure I would be like you..." Inferring that I am insecure. I bloody read it. Now, the fact that you are a pragmatist has absolutely no bearing on the quote itself, simply it's origin. Before criticizing someone's way of life, make sure you're life is completely free from critique. If it's not, then there is no room for you to make any judgments on other people.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Let's not as it is totally pointless. I'm not into making hypothetical judgements based on a pretend person who lives in the sky. It is "reasoning" such as this that discredits your argument completely. Lets stick with the facts, such as we know them to be.

Fine, then let's say a judge is looking at two people... Which one is he going to sentence, the one who is homosexual or the one who raped the 5 year old? There are worse things in the world that homosexuality. Again, you are nitpicking, trying to punch meaningless holes into my argument by asserting your pragmatism.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Greed is wanting that to which you are not entitled. If I wish to be anti social, the stigma it carries is no one's fault but my own.

And who is to say that gays are NOT entitled to marriage? You? Me? The government? No, it should be up to the couple themselves.

Originally Posted by senojekips

In the future i have no doubt that our system will be just as litigious as it is today, if not worse, we will have people sueing the Government for ever having opened up this totally unrealistic can of worms. The first case I can see will involve some person who was "adopted" by homos, then eventually wakes up to the fact that (s)he has been raised with a false idea of how the world really works. Hell, the government have been dragged into court for far less, and lost. We already have enough "screwed up" kids.

That's your opinion... In my eyes, it's not a FALSE way of how the world works... Simply ANOTHER way the world works...

Originally Posted by senojekips

Well, I've read them all, and I know what has already been debated, that's why I'm not willing to keep repeating myself. If you want to be taken half way seriously you should have the decency to do the same instead of dropping into the middle of a thread and expecting others to chase after you answering material that has already been covered.

Very good then, I'll come back to you.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Also, IF you bother to read my post, nowhere do I state that I know anything about homosexual education, other than the fact that I see it as another way homos are trying to gain credibility and gain recognition as a viable alternate lifestyle.

Guess what? Again... I read the damned post, and you said "BS,... it is designed to make homosexuality look like an acceptable alternative lifestyle."
That's claiming to know something (quite a lot actually) about homosexual sex ed! If you say ANYTHING about the content of homosexual sex education, you are claiming to know something about it! That's claiming that you've seen someone say "Homosexuality is an acceptable alternative lifestyle." But you haven't... Have you? You haven't seen ANY homosexual education videos/speeches/classes, have you?




To Del Boy:

The first article simply addresses gay history. Granted, they are a little young to be learning about ANY relevant history just yet, but it's not like they're encouraging homosexuality.

The 2nd and 3rd article are the same... Again, it's only introducing the idea as acceptable, NOT encouraging them to partake in it... I'm sure heterosexual stories are read as well, they just don't make the news.

The 4th article is basically correct... I'm not saying fire the teacher for saying mum and dad, but parents is a much more gender-neutral and therefore time-appropriate term.