Atheists in Glass Houses Shouldn't Throw Stones

[perseus]

[/QUOTE]

To be fair it is Darwin not Dawkins that proposes evolution as the origin of human life, Dawkins just writes incredibly long winded books about how it relates to Atheism.

Unfortunately though there is no real choice but attack the person rather than a belief because faith is the binding block for all sides whether it is God or Science you put your faith in to provide the answers it is really the persons make up you are attacking because that is what faith is, the only real difference is where you put your faith logic or spirituality.

As for the Big Bang well that argument is the same for Atheists, where did God come from, to argue that he/she/it was always there is no more logical than particles just appearing out of nowhere now is it.

Dawkins has popularised the theory of natural selection operating at a genetic level (as opposed to individuals or species competing) as the best mechanism to explain evolution. I think his anti-God crusade is more recent.

Regarding God. I agree, to invent something you don't understand to explain something else you can't understand doesn't really advance our knowledge very much. It certainly doesn't prove there is any omnipotent entity you can pray to which can answer. These questions do suggest however there are limits to scientific knowledge.

 

[Trooper1854]

To me, "faith" in the context of religion, is no more than another word for extreme gullibility.

It can be seen as the story of "The Emporor's new clothes".
But for Christians, and other religions, faith and belief is their way of explaining the way of things.
It may be said religions came about so ancient people could explain what they saw but couldn't understand because they didn't have the understanding of science that there is now.
In the 1600s, in Europe, people were still being burnt alive for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun.
People will want to believe in things, even feel comforted that there is some super natural being watching over them, in the way that a parent watches over a child.
In the last Census for England and Wales, 70.0% 0f people put themselves down as Christians, 14.7% stated no religion, and 0.7% as Jedi!
No matter how much people will argue the fact, Christians will state faith as the foundation of their beliefs.
Its going to be one of those debates that will never end.

 

[perseus]

On queue the NYT has an article on this subject in todays edition

Why is there something, rather than nothing at all. the question of why there was a Big Bang or any quantum particles at all was presumed to lie safely out of scientific bounds, in the realms of philosophy or religion.

Now even that assumption is no longer safe, as exemplified by a new book by the cosmologist Lawrence M. Krauss. In it he joins a chorus of physicists and cosmologists who have been pushing into sacred ground, proclaiming more and more loudly in the last few years that science can explain how something — namely our star-spangled cosmos — could be born from, if not nothing, something very close to it. God, they argue, is not part of the equation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/21/s...-springing-from-nothing.html?_r=1&ref=science

 

[Trooper1854]

I think the thing that somes up the hypocrisy of it all is an incident I dealt with.
Some young thug, gang member got his leg blown off below the knee by a shot gun durring a cocked up robbery.
He was loosing blood like nothing I had ever seen before.
He refused to have a blood transfusion because of his religious beliefs!!!!!
He must have broken everyone of God's commandments in his short miserable little life, but he was addamant he would not have a blood transfusion as his belief was he would have the sins of the donor put on his soul.

 

[BritinBritain]

I think the thing that somes up the hypocrisy of it all is an incident I dealt with.
Some young thug, gang member got his leg blown off below the knee by a shot gun durring a cocked up robbery.
He was loosing blood like nothing I had ever seen before.
He refused to have a blood transfusion because of his religious beliefs!!!!!
He must have broken everyone of God's commandments in his short miserable little life, but he was addamant he would not have a blood transfusion as his belief was he would have the sins of the donor put on his soul.

A buddy of mine works for the National Heart Hospital in London, if they get a young patient and their parents are Jehovah's Witness's, they phone a number and they are made wards of the court immediately. Well that's what he told me.

In your case Trooper I'd let the little scumbag bleed to death. That's one less to mug an old lady.

 

[MontyB]

Now even that assumption is no longer safe, as exemplified by a new book by the cosmologist Lawrence M. Krauss. In it he joins a chorus of physicists and cosmologists who have been pushing into sacred ground, proclaiming more and more loudly in the last few years that science can explain how something — namely our star-spangled cosmos — could be born from, if not nothing, something very close to it. God, they argue, is not part of the equation.

This is the problem with science, we live in a world that understands confidence only in the form of absolutes yet good science never talks in absolutes because it is an ongoing work what is known today can be refined tomorrow so they use terms like "science can explain how something — namely our star-spangled cosmos — could be born from, if not nothing, something very close to it. God, they argue, is not part of the equation." which is not absolute and therefore appears little more than a guess to the ordinary person.

The great weakness of evolution is not the science of evolution but the fact that it has the word "theory" in front of it.

 

[senojekips]

It can be seen as the story of "The Emporor's new clothes".
But for Christians, and other religions, faith and belief is their way of explaining the way of things.

Using "The Emperors New Clothes" as an example, you can perhaps now see why I have a very low regard for adult human beings who would resort to "faith" as a way of explanation for anything. Faith explains nothing, other than the weakness of those who have not got the backbone to face the realities of life, people who who are unwilling to take responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.

The video below may be confrontational to "believers", but I defy anyone to show where it is incorrect. It certainly sums up my views on "faith" in the religious context.

Faith

 

[perseus]

Come on PatCondell tell us what you really think!

Good points though, perhaps we are too frightened of attacking religion, particularily the Islamic variety.

 

[Trooper1854]

Using "The Emperors New Clothes" as an example, you can perhaps now see why I have a very low regard for adult human beings who would resort to "faith" as a way of explanation for anything. Faith explains nothing, other than the weakness of those who have not got the backbone to face the realities of life, people who who are unwilling to take responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.

The video below may be confrontational to "believers", but I defy anyone to show where it is incorrect. It certainly sums up my views on "faith" in the religious context.

Faith

I can understand your frustration at the mind set of these people.
Every ounce of logic says "How can you believe in something that you have no proof exits".
But there view may be said to be "How can you not have faith in the almighty?"
At the the end of the day the world has been fighting and arguing over this for centuries and there has not been any headway made.
The believers will always believe, the unbelievers will always have their views.
A priest I know through my work told me this, "If Jesus did make a second comming, it would be the Church more than anyone else, that he would have trouble convincing he was the true Messiah".

 

[BritinBritain]

I've been watching this thread for some time, but refraining from comment.

My personal experiences with religion.

I was taught in a convent school (not my choice I can assure you) and taught mainly by nuns. We were taught if we missed mass it was a mortal sin and would burn in hell for eternity, just about everything was a mortal sin. The nuns themselves were vicious bastards. I remember sitting in class when I was 8 or 9 years old, when a nun threw a blackboard rubber/eraser at me, why she did I have no idea. Anyway I ducked and it hit the kid behind me breaking his nose, claret everywhere. I was physically dragged to the front of the class and caned, once for something I was totally unaware of, and again for ducking which caused the kid behind me to get a broken nose. From that moment I turned away from the Catholic church and away from any religion come to that.

The Catholic Church in particular in my opinion is a total and utter fraud. Members of the Mafia and IRA go to church on Sundays then come Monday morning they blow some poor bugger apart or hang someone up on meat hooks, go back to church next Sunday, go to confession, say a few hail Mary's and get forgiven. Then there is the Catholic Church in Rome's involvement in helping NAZI war criminals to flee justice. If that's being religious you can poke it where the sun don't shine.

Lets not forget more blood has been spilled over religion then any other reason.

Rant over

 

[Padre]

Yes, those vicious bastard nuns didn't do you or Catholicism any favours. The hundreds of thousands of good, selfless, non-violent, dedicated, gentle, kind nuns working hard on little resources to give children a monetarily cheap but good education around the world and over the centuries don't count. They're all the same. They can all go to hell. 100 per cent of Catholic nuns are evil. It stands to reason If a bunch of a group are bad, the whole organisation is bad. If one Briton or African is bad, they're all bad. It stands to reason.


And yes, the UVF, UDF, Black & Tans, British Army, Ulster constabulary, and UK Government always and evrywhere in Northern Ireland acted peacefully and honourably - not like those vicious bastard Catholics.

Yes, Protestant clergy in Northern Ireland never encouraged or incited violence against different denominations - not like those vicious Catholic clergy.


Saint Ian Paisley pray for us.


And it's just catholic propaganda that the Catholic Church and individual Catholics helped Jews escape the Nazi's. There's no proof. That movie based on the life of Monsignor Hugh Flaherty played by Gregory peck is just fiction.


And the story about the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israeli Zolli, coverting to Catholicism because of the compassion he witnessed from Catholics in WW2, to the point that he took the new baptismal name of Eugenio in honour of Pope Pius XII (that bastard Nazi sympathiser) is all a false story made up by those vicious bastard Catholics.


And thank Darwin / Whatever, for peace-loving atheists and neo-pagans like Stalin, hitler, Pol Pot who never hurt anyone - not like all those religious fanatics in history, especially Catholics who have caused all wars, all human misery and global warming.


And thank Darwin / Whoever for BritinAfrica who has never hurt anyone in his/her life, nevr committed hypocricy or offence ever. All his/her family members, friends, partner(s), colleagues, will all testify that he/she has been perfect every day of his life towards every other human-being - not like those vicious bastard nuns.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1547134/Nazi-Pope-helped-Jews-flee-Holocaust.html


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Zolli


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O'Flaherty

 

[senojekips]

But there view may be said to be "How can you not have faith in the almighty?"

It's really easy. Firstly, "he's" not almighty, in fact there's not even any credible proof of his existence, let alone his "might". It's just a matter of not having faith in that which not only has no proof, but is simply not credible, even his followers can't agree most of what is written about him. If he was so mighty, one would think that surely he could arrange for his followers to get their ducks in a row. This type of faith is the faith that we see every day, doing such wonderful things as causing idiots to put their life savings into one armed bandits "knowing" that they are going to strike it big one day.

As said earlier, religious "Faith" is no more than the abandonment of reason.

 

[BritinBritain]

And yes, the UVF, UDF, Black & Tans, British Army, Ulster constabulary, and UK Government always and evrywhere in Northern Ireland acted peacefully and honourably - not like those vicious bastard Catholics.

Do you know why the British Army was sent to Northern Ireland in the first place?

Yes, Protestant clergy in Northern Ireland never encouraged or incited violence against different denominations - not like those vicious Catholic clergy.

Saint Ian Paisley pray for us.

Ian Paisley is as bad as Gerry Adams, and who is in the middle of their crap? British troops who didn't want to be there in the first place. All in the name of religion. I wouldn't know if the Protestant clergy incited violence or not, I wasn't there old chap. Were you?

And it's just catholic propaganda that the Catholic Church and individual Catholics helped Jews escape the Nazi's. There's no proof. That movie based on the life of Monsignor Hugh Flaherty played by Gregory peck is just fiction.

Oh aye? Alois Hudal (also known as Luigi Hudal; born 31 May 1885 in Graz, Austro-Hungarian Empire; died 13 May 1963 in Rome, Italy) was a Rome-based bishop of Austrian descent. He was for thirty years head of the small Austrian-German congregation of Santa Maria dell'Anima in Rome and until 1937, an influential representative of the Austrian Church. In his 1937 book The Foundations of National Socialism Hudal praised Adolf Hitler and some of his policies and indirectly attacked the policies of the Vatican. After World War II, Hudal became infamous for the "ratline" he helped to establish, allowing prominent Nazi German and other European former Axis officers and political leaders, among them war criminals, to escape Allied trials and denazification.

Or is that propaganda or fiction in your eyes?

And the story about the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israeli Zolli, coverting to Catholicism because of the compassion he witnessed from Catholics in WW2, to the point that he took the new baptismal name of Eugenio in honour of Pope Pius XII (that bastard Nazi sympathiser) is all a false story made up by those vicious bastard Catholics.

So what? I don't give a toss if Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israeli Zolli was voted to become the next pope or the next Lord Mayor of London.

Pope Pius XII's (1876-1958) actions during the Holocaust remain controversial. For much of the war, he maintained a public front of indifference and remained silent while German atrocities were committed. He refused pleas for help on the grounds of neutrality, while making statements condemning injustices in general. Note the wording "He maintained a public front of indifference and remained silent while German atrocities were committed. He refused pleas for help on the grounds of neutrality."

In the closing days of the war, thousands of displaced persons were scattered throughout a war torn Europe. These people were uprooted, torn from their homes, and many had no families to go to because they were either dead, missing, or somewhere across the continent. Most were victims of Nazi aggression while others were attempting to escape the advancing Soviet armies of Joseph Stalin. Intermingled within the crowds of displaced persons were some of Europe’s most notorious war criminals, individuals who had the blood of millions on their hands. Just before the end of the war, the Holy See’s Secretariat of State conducted a lobbying campaign to provide spiritual and material assistance to the impoverished. The Vatican has "consistently claimed that they were unaware of the identity of those who were undeserving of their humanitarian assistance." Unfortunately, a number of high ranking priests not only knew who these wanted war criminals were, they actively sought these men out, gave them extra assistance and afforded them benefits that very few people received throughout the war years.

And thank Darwin / Whatever, for peace-loving atheists and neo-pagans like Stalin, hitler, Pol Pot who never hurt anyone - not like all those religious fanatics in history, especially Catholics who have caused all wars, all human misery and global warming.

So you are saying that all atheists are murdering bastards and are you saying that had Stalin or Hitler or Pol Pot found God they would have been better men, peaceful, more humane? Well Alois Hudal found God and look what happened there. Years later it became public knowledge that war criminals like Klaus Barbie, Adolf Eichmann, Heinrich Mueller, Franz Stangl and a whole list of other war criminals escaped war torn Europe via the Catholic Church. Most of these men escaped through the work of one man, a Roman Catholic Bishop named Alois Hudal, Rector of the Pontificio Santa Maria dell’ Anima. "During the war Hudal served as Commissioner or the Episcopate for German speaking Catholics in Italy, as well as Father Confessor to Rome’s German community." Hudal harbored anti-Semitic feelings and his pro Nazi stance was well known throughout the Catholic community. During Hitler’s rule, Bishop Hudal often spoke about the unity between the Catholic Church and the Nazi government.

Opps, more propaganda or is it fiction?

And thank Darwin / Whoever for BritinAfrica who has never hurt anyone in his/her life, nevr committed hypocricy or offence ever. All his/her family members, friends, partner(s), colleagues, will all testify that he/she has been perfect every day of his life towards every other human-being - not like those vicious bastard nuns.

So you now know how I lived my life. That's very clever of you Padre. You'll have a bit of a problem getting my family to testify to anything, unless you can dig them up and bring them back to life. Unlike many so called Christians I am not a hypocrite. There's an old saying "If the cap fits Padre, wear it mate."

I must confess I did run over a snake once, not on purpose I might add. I was thinking about giving him/her/it CPR, but I think he was a dangerous blighter so I didn't. Poor little hissing Sid didn't go home that night. Poor poor Sid

Can you deny what I wrote regarding the IRA and the Mafia is truth and can you deny that more wars have been fought over religion then any other reason?

I wrote my own experiences of the so called Christian catholic church, if you don't like what I wrote, that's your problem, not mine sunbeam.

Quite frankly (with respect of course), you can poke your sanctimonious bible bashing clap trap where the sun don't shine Padre.

Oh by the way, one of my great uncles was an officer in the Black and Tans. Nice chap.

Try reading these:-

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_catholic_church.htm

http://archives.weirdload.com/gold.html

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/trials/eichmanntrialcapture.html

Or would you regard the above links as propaganda or fiction?

 

[Trooper1854]

Do you know why the British Army was sent to Northern Ireland in the first place?

Ian Paisley is as bad as Gerry Adams, and who is in the middle of their crap? British troops who didn't want to be there in the first place. All in the name of religion.

.

The Army was deployed to Northern Army at the request of the Catholics, to protect them from sectarian violence.
The moment they got there, they found themselves being shot at and blown up by the very people they were meant to be protecting!

Brit, I'm with you all the way mate!

 

[BritinBritain]

The Army was deployed to Northern Army at the request of the Catholics, to protect them from sectarian violence.
The moment they got there, they found themselves being shot at and blown up by the very people they were meant to be protecting!

Brit, I'm with you all the way mate!

Thanks Trooper.:cheers:

Too many British troops have died in Northern Ireland, for what?

 

[Padre]

I go back to my main point which I would have thought any reasonable person would see, that whilst you can prove, and rightly criticise abusive members of an organisation, you can’t say that because of the failings of some of those members that all members of that organisation are abusive, or corrupt, or hypocritical,l or bad, or evil, etc, etc.
That’s all I want to get across to you.
You can prove and I agree some Catholics are bad, abusive, hypocritical, a disgrace, dangerous, etc, etc… Some were Nazi sympathisers and supporters, some acted shamefully and murderously in Northern Ireland.
But that doesn’t mean all Catholics were/are bad, or corrupt, or abusive.
If we followed your logic, then because there were a few evil British soldiers in Northern Ireland all British soldiers were evil. But they weren’t, most, probably 99%, were good brave men doing their best to enforce law and order. Some did commit war crimes but that doesn’t mean all of them were bad.
Following your logic, because some British citizens were pro-Nazi, pro-Hitler, (Mosley) that means all British were pro-Nazi, anti-Jewish. You have this “all tarred with the same brush” attitude. Fine, but it can be then applied to you and your kind.
I don’t challenge your facts that some Catholics are bad, and that some were bad in history. I challenge your bigotry that ALL Catholics are bad.
I’ve given you examples of Catholics who behaved honourably and compassionately re Jewish persecution. But bigotry is blindness and deafness and you have it in great measure. But I understand why you are the way you are. You hate those and that which hurt you as a child. I’m sorry for that, but don’t hate all Catholics, or all nuns.
You are a bigot, but it was certain Catholics who damaged you and turned you into a bigot. They are to blame I suppose for your current bigotry. It’s not your fault. But I hope you can open your mind and heart to the point I am trying to make.
I hope you can change and see that not all nuns and not all Catholics are like those who taught you or those you hate in Northern Ireland, and hate from WWII.
BTW, I am a Northern Irish Australian, son of a Belfast Catholic mother and a Larne Protestant father.

 

[MontyB]

Well I wasnt going to get involved but what the hell...

The difference here is that while a few British citizens supported the Nazi regime they did so as individuals where as the general perception is that the Catholic/Nazi links started at the top and worked down at no stage did the leadership of the Catholic church show any attempt to stand up for the principles that it loudly expects others to follow and even when it was all over it still helped some of the most vile elements of the Nazi cause escape justice.

It is not individual Catholics that are at fault it is the Catholic institution that is the rotting edifice that sorely needs to be kicked in (note the adaptation of a Hitler quote).

 

[Padre]

Well I wasnt going to get involved

it's naughty to tell fibs Monty.

It is not individual Catholics that are at fault

well done Monty! We agree even if you got there via the low road. Well done. Thank you. But it is BritinAfrica & Co. you need to convince of this truth. Go for it. How are you by the way?

 

[MontyB]

it's naughty to tell fibs Monty.

Hey I took my shots early and got out of this thread as I am not going to get into another 30 page yawn-fest where the only two posters are just shouting the same thing over and over at each other.

well done Monty! We agree even if you got there via the low road. Well done. Thank you. But it is BritinAfrica & Co. you need to convince of this truth. Go for it. How are you by the way?

Isn't there a sin of omission?

Because I am sure that I pointed out how I believe it is the Catholic institution that is wrong and I am sure we don't agree on that.

 

[BritinBritain]

Because I am sure that I pointed out how I believe it is the Catholic institution that is wrong and I am sure we don't agree on that.

The difference here is that while a few British citizens supported the Nazi regime they did so as individuals where as the general perception is that the Catholic/Nazi links started at the top and worked down at no stage did the leadership of the Catholic church show any attempt to stand up for the principles that it loudly expects others to follow and even when it was all over it still helped some of the most vile elements of the Nazi cause escape justice

Exactly my point.

Am I a bigot? Perhaps I am. As I said I gave an account of my own experiences at the hands of Catholic nuns and the Catholic church. You don't have to convince me of anything, because frankly I'm not interested. A dog doesnt have to attack me twice to know its dangerous.

So you are a Northern Irish Australian, your mum was a Catholic and your dad a Protestant, so what? I don't care if one was a Buddhist monk and the other was a sengorma.

I once did business with two church going so called Christians, I have never met such a pair of lying and cheating scumbags before in my life. But that's another story.