Originally Posted by VDKMS

Again you are distorting the facts by listing something that is not valid anymore.2011"

Stop talking rubbish, and then making even more stupid statements to try and justify them.

We were talking of the criminally stupid items that have been banned by Israel in their attempts to reduce the living conditions of the Palestinians in Gaza to that of animals. Which is not only a crime against Humanity, but it also contravenes the Geneva Conventions IV, art. 33 (1949).

The fact that Israel later lifted some of the more ridiculous of them under International pressure, is certainly no credit to Israel.

As for you photos, who is to say that they were not specially set up Hamas propaganda shots, or for that matter they were even shot in Gaza. Had they have shown a packed market of hundreds of stalls similarly stocked in a clearly identifiable part of Gaza, you may have proved that there were what appears to be sweets and fruit available on that day, but otherwise it proves nothing.

For such a "well stocked market" in one of the most densely populated areas in the world there don't appear to be very many customers.We have more customers at the farmers market in my home town of 2000 people, and also it definitely doesn't match up with the reports of virtually every major humanitarian agency who has been there in the last five years or more. I'd say that they are almost certainly posed propaganda shots.

Originally Posted by senojekips

Stop talking rubbish, and then making even more stupid statements to try and justify them.

We were talking of the criminally stupid items that have been banned by Israel in their attempts to reduce the living conditions of the Palestinians in Gaza to that of animals. Which is not only a crime against Humanity, but it also contravenes the Geneva Conventions IV, art. 33 (1949).

The fact that Israel later lifted some of the more ridiculous of them under International pressure, is certainly no credit to Israel.

As for you photos, who is to say that they were not specially set up Hamas propaganda shots, or for that matter they were even shot in Gaza. Had they have shown a packed market of hundreds of stalls similarly stocked in a clearly identifiable part of Gaza, you may have proved that there were what appears to be sweets and fruit available on that day, but otherwise it proves nothing.

For such a "well stocked market" in one of the most densely populated areas in the world there don't appear to be very many customers.We have more customers at the farmers market in my home town of 2000 people, and also it definitely doesn't match up with the reports of virtually every major humanitarian agency who has been there in the last five years or more. I'd say that they are almost certainly posed propaganda shots.

Wake up! All this is real. Read the article in the New York Times here

People in Gaza want to have a life just like anyone else instead of attacking Israel. They want peace. Thanks to the Arab Spring they get a little bit more freedom from their leaders who are only interested in destroying Israel. Palestinians are more and more becoming fed up with that.

Hamas police violently dispersed several peaceful demonstrations in Gaza beginning March 15, 2011, including sealing off access to public squares and universities and beating trapped demonstrators.

Human Rights Watch : West Bank/Gaza: Stop Harassing Journalists

Human Rights Watch : Gaza: Halt Morality Enforcement Campaign

Peace will come when the attacks on Israel stops. Palestinian people know that but their leadership not. Do you know why? Because of religion, Non-Muslim countries are not allowed on Muslim land. That's how the conflict started.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

People in Gaza want to have a life just like anyone else instead of attacking Israel. They want peace.

Of course they want peace you idiot, but they are not going to give their country to a foreign invader just to get it. Unlike you, they have morals and a bit of backbone and will stand up for what is rightfully theirs.

If Israel wants peace, get out of someone else's country and stop harassing, beating and murdering their people.

You forget that these so called "bad guys" you try to demonise, are the elected Government doing what they were elected to do by those people you claim to quote. What they do in their own country is none of your business, especially when you support a regime that that has been stealing from, beating, harassing and murdering Palestinians, and has been doing it for over 60 years.

So,.. you want to talk about harassment of journalists. You must be a certifiable idiot for even raising that point. There are at least thirty other videos available just for this subject. Israeli attacks on journalists is perhaps one of the most reported acts of thuggery reported in the news.

Israels harrassment of US journalists

And Israeli Police violently disperse peaceful Israeli demonstrators, http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=4246,6480369

Israeli police violently attack peaceful Israelis

You see,... even Israelis agree that they are in the wrong, but the Zionist thugs will beat them into submission, and you have the unmitigated gall to point the finger at Hamas??
..... and also beating Israeli Rabbis, such charming people you support.

Armed Zionist Thugs beating Rabbis

There's plenty more, lots and lots,....

Originally Posted by senojekips

Of course they want peace you idiot, but they are not going to give their country to a foreign invader just to get it. Unlike you, they have morals and a bit of backbone and will stand up for what is rightfully theirs.

Israel does not intent to annex Gaza or the West Bank, and if you don't believe that you are paranoid.
And if they wanted a Palestinian state then they should have fought for it before the Jews got one, they've had plenty of time to do that. So I think it wasn't quite urgent.

If Israel wants peace, get out of someone else's country and stop harassing, beating and murdering their people.

Who's country? You are talking about something that does not exists. Israel does exist and is a UN member state and has no sovereignty disputes. Look here : List of sovereign states

You forget that these so called "bad guys" you try to demonise, are the elected Government doing what they were elected to do by those people you claim to quote. What they do in their own country is none of your business, especially when you support a regime that that has been stealing from, beating, harassing and murdering Palestinians, and has been doing it for over 60 years.

That government didn't respect international agreements. That's why it was boycoted by Israel, the United States, the European Union, several Western states, and the Arab states. Hamas must fullfil '3 Demands,' recognizing Israel, accepting agreements made by the Palestinian Authority under the previous Fatah-led Administration, and denouncing violence.

Does it not yet occurred to you that whatever you post (pictures, clips) about Israel I can counter with the same about the Palestinians?

You are an atheist and yet you stand by Hamas? Have your ever read their charter?
Article 8 The Hamas document reiterates the Muslim Brotherhood's slogan of "Allah is its goal, the Prophet is the model, the Qur'an its constitution, jihad its path, and death for the sake of Allah its most sublime belief.
Article 15 "The day that enemies usurp part of Muslim land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Muslim".It states the history of crusades into Muslim lands and says the "Palestinian problem is a religious problem"

Read article 15 very good, it includes Spain, because Spain was once Muslim land. Do not underestimate Islam, it's full of references to violence and occupation.

While Palestine is recognized by 127 members, it don't have recognition of the countries that are powerful enough to help it get a state.

This includes Australia, UK, U.S, and many EU nations. It is pretty obvious Russia and China would agree with Palestine state (especially Russia). A good deal of those that accepts Palestine are Muslim countries or competes with the Western countries.


This is what I mean, Palestine are getting support from people that can't give them their statehood while at the same time, their Islamic buddies push away those that can.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

Israel does not intent to annex Gaza or the West Bank, and if you don't believe that you are paranoid.

“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.” Who said that, I wonder?

Originally Posted by VDKMS

And if they wanted a Palestinian state then they should have fought for it before the Jews got one, they've had plenty of time to do that. So I think it wasn't quite urgent.

You powers of logic are right up there this morning. Just stop and think for a second.

Before the Jews invaded, the Palestinians were told that they were going to get their homeland,... so who would they have fought? They were not as treacherous as the Jews who illegally attacked the mandated British administration to get what they wanted.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

Who's country? You are talking about something that does not exists. Israel does exist and is a UN member state and has no sovereignty disputes. Look here : List of sovereign states

How many times do we have to go through this? You are really struggling to get a grip on reality aren't you. Being a sovereign state has no influence on who owns the land. Sources have already been supplied, and quotes from people such as David Ben Gurion substantiate this fact.

Originally Posted by David Ben Gurion

If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country.

We= the Israelis,... "have taken"=stolen or illegally acquired" ,... "their country"= the country belonging to the Palestinians. The fact that this statement admits that the land belonging to the Palestinians "their country", was taken, is an open admission of theft or illegal occupation.
You see, it is the constant denial of facts such as this which clearly demonstrates your total lack of any factual knowledge and even worse, any desire to acquire it. You have the intellect of a cinder block.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

That government didn't respect international agreements.

Firstly, they are a democratically elected government in their own country, and there were no International conditions on that election. Unlike Israel's admittance to the UN, which was conditional upon many things,... like the fact that no harm must come to the native population. Tell me more about unfulfilled conditions and I will give you twice as many that apply to Israel.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

Does it not yet occurred to you that whatever you post (pictures, clips) about Israel I can counter with the same about the Palestinians?

Yes, but you only post opinions of Israeli propagandists, very short on actual footage, I'll guarantee that I can find far more live videos of actual beatings harassment and murder or innocent civilians than you can. In any case the videos I provided were merely to counter your rather ludicrous claim, that these were Palestinian shortcomings, and to demonstrate that Israeli police and army also beats it's peaceful demonstrators. If I do not do this, you resort to your usual answer, baseless denial, which is hard to do when you have the video evidence in front of you.

So,... you didn't like me showing that the Israelis are far worse than the Palestinians at your alleged crimes. Remember the Israelis are doing these things to support an illegal occupation whereas the Palestinians are merely attempting to sabotage the effort of these criminals, and they are doing what they were elected to do. A great difference,....

Originally Posted by VDKMS

You are an atheist and yet you stand by Hamas? Have your ever read their charter?

Please quote exactly where I said that,... again you distort the facts to suit your story. It just comes down to which one I dislike the most,.. and for any human being with an ounce of moral fibre there is no contest, Israel wins hands down.

Originally Posted by VDKMS

Read article 15 very good, it includes Spain, because Spain was once Muslim land. Do not underestimate Islam, it's full of references to violence and occupation.

I don't give a flying fcuk about Islam, I'm far more concerned that the actions of Israel in Palestine which has led the world into an era of Global Terrorism, the likes of which we have never seem before.

Originally Posted by senojekips

It just comes down to which one I dislike the most,.. and for any human being with an ounce of moral fibre there is no contest, Israel wins hands down.

Morality is subjective most of the time. Just because your morales are like this doesn't mean others should be as well, this do not mean that they have any less or any more morality than you.

I on the other hand see Hamas as more a pain in my side than Israel. These Palestinians do not want to recognize a Jewish state, but they want other countries to accept their Sharia law? That is BS, they might as well say they are an Islamic country and it show how religion plays a huge part in the opposition against Israel (on the Islamic side).

A country that openly uses terror should not be caved into; due to Hamas it really hurts Palestinian relations.

However, many nations, even the U.S is willing to accept Palestine. This is if they open peace talks back up with Israel. Even your country agrees with this.

Originally Posted by RayManKiller3

Morality is subjective most of the time. Just because your morales are like this doesn't mean others should be as well, this do not mean that they have any less or any more morality than you.

I on the other hand see Hamas as more a pain in my side than Israel. These Palestinians do not want to recognize a Jewish state, but they want other countries to accept their Sharia law? That is BS, they might as well say they are an Islamic country and it show how religion plays a huge part in the opposition against Israel (on the Islamic side).

A country that openly uses terror should not be caved into; due to Hamas it really hurts Palestinian relations.

However, many nations, even the U.S is willing to accept Palestine. This is if they open peace talks back up with Israel. Even your country agrees with this.

You have no idea how much I would like to have avoided this thread but you have made it impossible... What countries have the Palestinians asked to convert to Sharia law?

As far as not caving in to terrorism goes you are right but if that had been done right from the start there would be no Israel, they are a nation born of terrorism and it is somewhat hypocritical of them to be crying about it now, seems that you really do reap what you sew.

The unfortunate thing is some guy has come here to post about Arabs in the Israeli army and all he has received is 11 pages of totally unrelated bitching it is really a shame we can not seem to stay on a topic.

Originally Posted by RayManKiller3

Morality is subjective most of the time.

No, I wouldn't say that, but it is certainly measured in degrees. It appears that it only becomes subjective when people wish to avoid the unpleasant truth. When it's all said and done morality is no more than knowing the difference between right and wrong, and adhering to it as best you can. Zionists have made no attempt to do the right thing from day one.

Originally Posted by MontyB

You have no idea how much I would like to have avoided this thread but you have made it impossible... ---snip---

The unfortunate thing is some guy has come here to post about Arabs in the Israeli army and all he has received is 11 pages of totally unrelated bitching it is really a shame we can not seem to stay on a topic.

You see MontyB, those of us who have an interest in the subject, all have our limit as to to how much rubbish and blatant propaganda we can just ignore,... and by your own admission, that does on occasion include yourself. Apparently I just have a lower tolerance for bullsh!t than you do. We all have our limits,...

It's hardly a bad thing if it brings even the smallest truth to bear.

My point being that the original post was nothing less than a very thinly disguised attempt at Zionist propaganda.

Originally Posted by senojekips

“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.” Who said that, I wonder?

Wow! Again a distortion of a fact. Here's the REAL quote:
"We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs." Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937). Look here.

Before the Jews invaded, the Palestinians were told that they were going to get their homeland,... so who would they have fought? They were not as treacherous as the Jews who illegally attacked the mandated British administration to get what they wanted.

Another distortion of the facts. It's one of those questions you never answered. Where did you get this quail?
About the attacks, I prooved more than once who really started the attacks, with dates! Where are yours??

How many times do we have to go through this? You are really struggling to get a grip on reality aren't you. Being a sovereign state has no influence on who owns the land. Sources have already been supplied, and quotes from people such as David Ben Gurion substantiate this fact.

A small but important correction, he was not talking about the Palestinians, he was talking about the Arabs. The Arabs were promised a country, not the Palestinians. So, again you are distorting the facts.

We= the Israelis,... "have taken"=stolen or illegally acquired" ,... "their country"= the country belonging to the Palestinians. The fact that this statement admits that the land belonging to the Palestinians "their country", was taken, is an open admission of theft or illegal occupation.
You see, it is the constant denial of facts such as this which clearly demonstrates your total lack of any factual knowledge and even worse, any desire to acquire it. You have the intellect of a cinder block.

Read my reply above?

Firstly, they are a democratically elected government in their own country, and there were no International conditions on that election. Unlike Israel's admittance to the UN, which was conditional upon many things,... like the fact that no harm must come to the native population. Tell me more about unfulfilled conditions and I will give you twice as many that apply to Israel.

Show me where the word "native" is used in any of these UN tresolutions:
UN General Assembly Resolution 181
UN General Assembly Resolution 194
UN General Assembly Resolution 273
Like usual you are distorting the facts.

Yes, but you only post opinions of Israeli propagandists, very short on actual footage, I'll guarantee that I can find far more live videos of actual beatings harassment and murder or innocent civilians than you can. In any case the videos I provided were merely to counter your rather ludicrous claim, that these were Palestinian shortcomings, and to demonstrate that Israeli police and army also beats it's peaceful demonstrators. If I do not do this, you resort to your usual answer, baseless denial, which is hard to do when you have the video evidence in front of you.

So Human Rights Watch and the New York Times are Israeli propagandists?

So,... you didn't like me showing that the Israelis are far worse than the Palestinians at your alleged crimes. Remember the Israelis are doing these things to support an illegal occupation whereas the Palestinians are merely attempting to sabotage the effort of these criminals, and they are doing what they were elected to do. A great difference,....

That's just your opinion, I have another one.

Please quote exactly where I said that,... again you distort the facts to suit your story. It just comes down to which one I dislike the most,.. and for any human being with an ounce of moral fibre there is no contest, Israel wins hands down.

This is a good one. Israel does not endanger their own population, Hamas does.
At least 600 Palestinians died in fighting between Hamas and Fatah. Human Rights Watch, a U.S.-based group, accused both sides in the conflict of torture and war crimes.Article here. Killing and torturing their own people. I am not talking about a "protest" but a real war between Fatah and Hamas.

I don't give a flying fcuk about Islam, I'm far more concerned that the actions of Israel in Palestine which has led the world into an era of Global Terrorism, the likes of which we have never seem before.

No, this started it all : Speeches by Arab religious leaders (Haj Amin al-Husseini ) during the festival, in which traditionally large numbers of Muslims gathered for a religious procession, led to a serious outbreak of violent assaults on the city's Jews, with five Jews killed and hundreds wounded.

Well, your view of global terrorism is totally wrong. Remember the questions I asked about that? Up untill today you didn't answer them.