It would work as it would as well with the concept that no one had firearms... so it simply doesn't.

Originally Posted by MontyB

I have no doubt there is but I am prepared to bet that there is an even bigger pile of evidence of innocent lives being taken by firearms.

The anti gun crowd are forever jumping on the band wagon of children who are killed by guns, what they forget to mention that the majority (in South Africa) are gang members of 17, 18 and 19 years of age fighting over turf, thats fact. Those innocent children whom are killed by guns, in the vast majority of cases are victims of illegal guns owned and used by criminals. Very few, less then .01% of legal firearm are misused by their owners, I would also agree that the .01% is too many.

Statistics show that more children drown in swimming pools in South Africa then are killed or injured by firearms, thats also fact. Should we ban swimming pools?

The subject of privately held firearms has got to be put in prospective.

Research around the world has clearly shown that “More Guns = Less Crime.”


UK has one of the most restrictive gun laws on the planet, yet armed crime is going through the roof, all carried out with illegal firearms. Many senior police officers in UK are now admitting that the firearms act is not reducing crime, and is doing nothing to take illegal guns off the streets. Only the law abiding obey gun laws, criminals don't.

All restrictive gun laws do is turn innocent law-abiding people into victims and tie up millions of police hours and billions of “Pounds, Dollars, Euro's, Rands or whatever” which would be better spent chasing and catching crooks rather then harassing legal firearm owners.

After 150 years of restrictive gun laws, the success rate list should be long, where is it?

Originally Posted by BritinAfrica

The anti gun crowd are forever jumping on the band wagon of children who are killed by guns, what they forget to mention that the majority (in South Africa) are gang members of 17, 18 and 19 years of age fighting over turf, thats fact. Those innocent children whom are killed by guns, in the vast majority of cases are victims of illegal guns owned and used by criminals. Very few, less then .01% of legal firearm are misused by their owners, I would also agree that the .01% is too many.
Statistics show that more children drown in swimming pools in South Africa then are killed or injured by firearms, thats also fact. Should we ban swimming pools?
The subject of privately held firearms has got to be put in prospective.
Research around the world has clearly shown that “More Guns = Less Crime.”

Yes but the funny thing is that the "Pro-Gun Lobby" trot out the same tired arguments every week as well and both sides carefully manage to report half truths and speculation on a constant basis.

This argument is not about banning guns or even restricting what can and can't be owned it is about what methods can be put in place to allow those who will follow rules to buy firearms while making it as difficult as possible for the bad guys to get and keep them.

So please do not fall into the 5.56 argument that "I am all for stopping bad guys getting guns but I will scream blue murder if you do anything that might prevent them being given away in cornflakes packets".

The fact that you may need a firearm for protection is in itself an indication of much bigger problems in your society that you would be better off fixing.

Incidentally your point about swimming pools, well oddly enough pools are not banned but many nations require them fenced and secured so even they have rules.

Actually here is an interesting break down on New Zealand fire arms ownership by what appears to be a US gun enthusiast...

I am not in any way suggesting that the system will work anywhere but in New Zealand but it does prove that a system can work.

I currently hold B, C and E endorsements, I would like a D but the market in New Zealand really doesn't justify it.

Guns in New Zealand

After the looseness of gun ownership in the USA and the craziness that is happening world-wide in trying to take away the ownership of guns from citizens who have done no wrong, I found that the laws in NZ concerning the ownership of small arms were quite sane. Whether it stays that way or not remains to be seen. We are, sorry to say, greatly influenced by Australia, and that country has recently enacted extremely draconian gun laws.
The starting point of gun ownership in New Zealand is to apply to the New Zealand Police for a firearms license. You are given a book to read about firearm safety, and required to attend a four hour orientation session at the local police station. A variety of long arms are shown and explained ("this is what a rifle looks like when it has been fired with dirt in the barrel") and a 30 question test is administered, based upon the information just presented. The passing score is 28 and if you miss any of the seven questions about basic principles of safety, you are not passed. These principles are:

1. Treat every weapons as if it is loaded
2. Always point the firearm in a safe direction
3. Load the firearm only when ready to fire
4. Identify the target
5. Check the firing zone
6. Store the firearms and ammunition separately and safely
7. Do not mix alcohol or drugs with shooting

A friend who was applying for a license noticed one .22 rifle being shown at an orientation had a threaded muzzle. He asked about it.

"Oh. That's for a silencer."
"You can have silencers here?"
"Of course! How else can you shoot the rabbits without scaring the sheep?"

When I heard that story I realized that NZ was very different than the United States!
Before you are granted the arms license (which looks like a driver's license including your picture) the arms officer visits your home and makes sure you have a secure place to house the guns. In the case of regular long-arms (rifles/shotguns) you would need a lockable cabinet or closet-- somewhere that the guns are out of sight and are not easily accessible. The ammunition must be stored in another lockable location.
Aside from requiring references, those living in the house are interviewed to make sure that they are OK about having weapons in the house.
If you pass all these requirements, you are then issued an "A" endorsed license (for a fee of $123.75 good for ten years). This license allows you to purchase both long arms and the ammunition for them.
To purchase pistols, you must meet a second set of criteria.
First, you must join a pistol club that is a member of the New Zealand Pistol Association (Pistol New Zealand) <http://www.pistolnz.org.nz>. You must shoot with that club at least 12 times in six months and take part in general club activity. Usually, you will be shooting with a pistol that is owned by the club and held by the club's armorer.
After this six month period, the club can recommend to the police that you be allowed a "B" endorsement on your license. At which point, more references are required, your family is interviewed again, and background checks are made.
You are required to store pistols in a "secure" strongroom or safe. A safe should be should be installed in a non-conspicuous place (like a closet), and must be made from a minimum of 6mm steel. The door must fit flush, and not be able to be pried off. It is lockable by a 5-lever deadbolt, or a hardened lock and hasp. The safe door must not be able to opened if the hinges were to be removed. The safe is to be bolted to both the floor and wall, and the bolt-heads must be inside the safe. If the floor is on wooden joists, then the safe must span two joists and be bolted through a steel plate which exceeds the floor area of the safe.
The safe is then inspected by the arms officer. All windows in the house are to be lockable. The main doors must have deadbolts. An alarm system is recommended.
When all these requirements are met, the "B" endorsement is issued. Each additional endorsement requires a fee of $200 be paid. The endorsement remains in effect as along as you have a firearms license.
To then purchase a pistol, you make the purchase at the gun store (showing your "B" license), and you get a receipt for the gun. You then take the receipt to your gun club and have the "pink slip" made out that documents that you are purchasing a gun to be used at the club. You then take the pink slip to the local police arms officer who issues a permit to purchase. You take this to the store, pick up the gun, and bring it back to the police who verify that all the serial numbers match. Then you take it home and put it in your safe. You can transport it (in a locked box) only to and from the range or to and from a gun dealer or gunsmith. You are allowed to have 12 working pistols on your "B" license.
To maintain your "B" license you must shoot with the club a minimum of 12 times a year. There are 83 pistol clubs in NZ with a total of 2,350 members.
There are other endorsements. Under a "C" (collector) endorsement one can buy weapons for a "collection" but none of these may ever be fired. The only pistols that may be fired are those on the "B" license. The "C" license would encompass pistols with barrels shorter than 4" and a variety of other arms. It is not unusual to see full Vickers or Browning machine guns or mortar tubes offered at one of the many auctions held by the NZ Antique Arms Association . Such weapons can be purchased on a collector's endorsement. Their storage, of course, must be in a secure place, and the bolts or firing pins must be removed.
The "C" endorsement is for bona fide collectors; a person to whom the weapon has a special significance (as an heirloom or memento); the curator of a museum; theatrical groups or film making organizations.
The "E" endorsement is for those who wish to own "military style" semi-automatic weapons (MSSA) -- identified by one or more of the following characteristics:

1. Folding or telescopic butt stock
2. Magazine of more than 15 .22 cartridges or 7 centerfire cartridges.
3. Bayonet lug
4. Free standing military style pistol grip
5. Flash suppressor

All weapons of this type must be kept in an appropriate rifle safe. To get an "E" endorsement you must demonstrate good reasons for having such a weapon. ("Why do you need an MSSA? Why not a sporting rifle? What make or model? Why?)
Because only an "E" endorsed license holder can have or use such a weapon, it is an offense for anyone without the appropriate endorsement to handle one or fire one, even under supervision.
Under the above law, putting a 20 round clip into a .22 semi-automatic rifle changes the definition of that rifle to a MSSA.
A fourth endorsement "D" is for dealers, which allows them to possess weapons in their capacity of a dealer.
Some collectors I have met in NZ have made a room of their house into a "safe." All floors, walls, and ceiling have been covered by 16mm construction ply screwed to the framing, and a steel door with special frame is installed. If there are any windows, they must be barred to a specified standard. Since this room is considered a "safe" all the guns may be openly exhibited.
The firearms license may be revoked and arms confiscated if the holder is convicted of an offense that results in a prison sentence, is convicted of domestic violence, or convicted of drunk driving.


http://julianwinston.com/guns/nz_guns.php


http://julianwinston.com/winston/about_julian.php

Originally Posted by MontyB

Yes but the funny thing is that the "Pro-Gun Lobby" trot out the same tired arguments every week as well and both sides carefully manage to report half truths and speculation on a constant basis.

This argument is not about banning guns or even restricting what can and can't be owned it is about what methods can be put in place to allow those who will follow rules to buy firearms while making it as difficult as possible for the bad guys to get and keep them.

Again, most of the things that could be put in place are only going to restrict access to weapons by the people willing to follow the law. Straw Purchasing isn't the ONLY way criminals get their guns.

Originally Posted by MontyB

So please do not fall into the 5.56 argument that "I am all for stopping bad guys getting guns but I will scream blue murder if you do anything that might prevent them being given away in cornflakes packets".

It's a question of too much government involvement... Sure, folks with a mental health question shouldn't be allowed to buy a gun, but I should be able to walk in, pass a background check, and purchase a pistol... I shouldn't have to wait 6 months, join a pistol club, call my childhood friends to have them for references, and have a safe room in my house... That's a BIT over the top.

Originally Posted by MontyB

The fact that you may need a firearm for protection is in itself an indication of much bigger problems in your society that you would be better off fixing.

Evil people will always be in society. The idea that we can fix those people in our society is stupid... It's just about the most naïve thing I've heard from you, Monty...

Originally Posted by MontyB

Incidentally your point about swimming pools, well oddly enough pools are not banned but many nations require them fenced and secured so even they have rules.

Yes, but again, you don't have to wait 6 months and pass a background check to have a swimming pool put in, do you?

Originally Posted by MontyB

Yes but the funny thing is that the "Pro-Gun Lobby" trot out the same tired arguments every week as well and both sides carefully manage to report half truths and speculation on a constant basis..

The fact remains however you wish to look at it, the more guns in civilians hands crime drops. The bad guys will always get guns, even if there was an outright ban. Take Northern Ireland, the IRA managed to get what they wanted, RPG's, AK47 and M16's, grenades, semtex you name it, they got it despite constant patrols by the British military. In Florida rape was a major concern, when the concealed carry laws were enacted, rape and other crimes dropped considerably.
The anti gun highly paid propagandist group Gun Free South Africa are fast losing credibility with their (proven to be) fake research, they are even losing their funding from groups such as the Rowntree Foundation

Originally Posted by MontyB

This argument is not about banning guns or even restricting what can and can't be owned it is about what methods can be put in place to allow those who will follow rules to buy firearms while making it as difficult as possible for the bad guys to get and keep them..

I agree with that statement. But, how will you stop the bad guys getting illegal guns? The answer is, you wont. If the bad guys want guns they will get them. See my statement regarding Northern Ireland above.



When prohibition was enacted in the US, it is on record that drunkenness increased by around 30%. Prohibition saw the massive rise of the Mafia who saw the chance to make big money by supplying illicit booze, an organisation that still blights the US today. You can ban anything, but the criminal fraternity will find a way to make money out of it

Originally Posted by MontyB

So please do not fall into the 5.56 argument that "I am all for stopping bad guys getting guns but I will scream blue murder if you do anything that might prevent them being given away in cornflakes packets"..

There should be no restrictions on a law abiding civilian owning and obtaining what they so desire, if a back ground check shows they have not a criminal record or mental health problems. In the US they are (with certain restrictions I believe) allowed to own selective fire BREN's, Sterlings, M60's Browning's, Vickers and so on. As far as I am aware a meeting is held every year where all this wonderful ordnance is fired off. Great fun is had by all and neither are those people a threat to law and order.

Originally Posted by MontyB

The fact that you may need a firearm for protection is in itself an indication of much bigger problems in your society that you would be better off fixing..

In the UK for example, in many major cities armed crime is spiralling out of control, the same in South Africa. An interesting fact, when the 1994 elections were held in South Africa resulting in the ANC coming to power, blacks were allowed to buy and own firearms for self defence. In black townships where crime is always a problem, when more and more law abiding citizens owned guns crime was actually dropping. The ANC expected the buying spree to drop off or stop, it didn't, more and more blacks bought guns for self defence and crime was dropping. Yet for some reason the ANC became nervous.

When the current act was enacted, making it virtually impossible to get a licence, plus forcing people to hand guns they already owned into the police, crime began to climb again and is still climbing. I know of 3 men who were murdered after they were refused a licence for a self defence firearm. The police refused the licence by saying, “Not convinced of need.” They don't need their guns anymore, they are dead.

Originally Posted by MontyB

Incidentally your point about swimming pools, well oddly enough pools are not banned but many nations require them fenced and secured so even they have rules.

Rules or not, more children drown in swimming pools each year then are killed or injured by firearms. Thats fact.