Looking at Sven's original question:

Post: Are Americans any different?
I have recently been watching a fair few pro-gun films and debates on you tube.
[Sven, you can find just about any NUT on YouTube, doesn't mean they're making valid arguments.]

Most of them have this view: The Australian and British gun owners 'gave up' and that Americans would NEVER surrender their firearms.
The constant opinion voiced by American gun owners is that they would die rather than be disarmed.
Is this really true? If the US government banned semi auto long guns or all pistols tomorrow how many citizens would put their money where their mouth is?
[I am sure there would be a heck of al ot more who would than would not, honestly. The entire Second Amendment is there to protect American citizens from THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT. The entire Constitution constrains the power of government, the second amendment provides the mechanism to re-right the balance if government oversteps its Constitutional bounds.]

We Brits and Australians tried to protest but were ignored,I know there are some Americans who would have it end in a seige (waco shows this) but would the average law abiding gun owner in the US throw away everything (job,family,liberty or even life) to prove a point or would they comply with the law even though they disagreed with it because they ARE law abiding?
[I honestly think that there are plenty, plenty who would actively fight a law that is that unconstitutional.]

I hope they would.As much as I want you guys to keep your freedoms,especially that of being armed I would hate to see numerous instances of law abiding family men(and women) becoming criminals and being locked away or worse.
[Our founding fathers sacrificed EVERYTHING to provide us with the chance to establish, and keep, a nation of the people, by the people, and for the people. Many, many Americans, especially people who own firearms, take that commitment VERY seriously, and I could see a lot of folks following in the steps of the Founding Fathers to renew that commitment, even if it meant sacrificing everything they have.]

So if you are a US citizen. What would you really do if you had 24hours to surrender your weapons?
[Pass.]

I would like to know so I can decide whether all these 'from my dead hands' statements are just an emphasis of a peoples belief in something or whether common folk are latently suicidal and would throw away everything just because they have a bad government.
[I think the prime difference is the relationship Americans have with their government compared to Britain or Australia. See above statements for clarification. I think the proof is in the pudding, but the Second Amendment is so clear and such a cornerstone of the Republic that we will not see that occur. The fact that it has not shows not a temerity on the part of the government, but a reflection of that basic social compact.]

Chupike: "You bet your a**. It has only been 233 years since we overthrew the last "bad" government."

"When I enlisted in the military I swore to serve and defend the government. I took that seriously, to the point that when my enlistment ended, my allegiance didn't. If a ruling body violates what I swore allegiance too, I am still sworn to support a legitimate government. I may have over the years disagreed with the job the government is doing but it has not become a bad government yet."

Could not have said it better.

this is what I swore to in 1980, and this is why I still have guns

"I, _____, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


This was never unsworn when I was discharged. (18.5 years now DAV )

I have taken four oaths so far in my life. Two were as police. One was for the US Army and the other was when I was a cadet in the Civil Air Patrol. Out of those four..... three involved me possibly losing my life over....

US Army

"I, _____, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


Police Department

"I, _____, do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the State of Florida. I will obey the laws of the United States and of the State of Florida and I will, in all respects, observe the provisions of the charter and ordinances of the City of _____, and will faithfully discharge the duties of the offices of Police Officer upon which I am about to enter. So help me God."


Civil Air Patrol

"I, _____, pledge to serve faithfully in the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program and that I will attend meetings regularly, participate actively in unit activities, obey my officers, wear my uniform properly, and advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation. So help me God"

All three oaths have not been unsworn. I have my rights and I defend your rights.....

I am bitter, cling to my guns, and my religion.

What is there that says an amendment cannot be "Struck off" or "re amended". after all it is only an amendment which implies that it is only a change or addition to an existing understanding.
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Dictionary: a·mend·ment (ə-mĕnd'mənt)

n.

1. The act of changing for the better; improvement: “Society may sometimes show signs of repentance and amendment” (George G. Coulton).
2. A correction or alteration, as in a manuscript.
3. 1. The process of formally altering or adding to a document or record.
   2. A statement of such an alteration or addition: The 19th Amendment to the Constitution gave women the right to vote.

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What everybody is very conveniently missing is that all Laws can be changed or further amended if the need or desire arises.

Even Constitutions are not immutable.

I would like to see some answers to Bropous's question as to what would you do if given 24 hours to comply with a change in the gun laws. Where would we stand regarding all this high flying talk of Defence of the constitution.

Personally I feel that most would comply, many would break the law, and it would only be the occasional nutter who would defend his "rights" to the death.

Originally Posted by senojekips

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What everybody is very conveniently missing is that all Laws can be changed or further amended if the need or desire arises.

Even Constitutions are not immutable. .

Damn right. We were sweating that the ANC didnt get a 2/3rds majority in the recent elections, which is needed to change the constitution. The ANC have stated (although denied later) that if they get the 2/3rds majority they were going to change the constitution. Anyones guess what they would have changed, but statements have been made that changes would include immunity for the president against being charged with crimes.

The ANC narrowly missed the 2/3rds majority by 1%, too close for comfort.

You do realize that senojekips is saying that the Constitution all these folks swear to defend and protect ISN'T immune to changing... Right?

Yes.... but also the founding documents of the USA and the Constitution state that the rights listed in the Bill of Rights aren't granted to us by the Constitution but that they are rights we are born with and thus they cannot be taken away even if the Constitution is amended or simply thrown away.

That part can be stricken from the records just as easily... The entire document of the Constitution could be burned today, and it wouldn't affect anyone's "God given" rights, because God given rights are manifested through men, and therefore, are NOT God given any more.

Originally Posted by Rob Henderson

That part can be stricken from the records just as easily... The entire document of the Constitution could be burned today, and it wouldn't affect anyone's "God given" rights, because God given rights are manifested through men, and therefore, are NOT God given any more.

I used to be able to understnd profound statements like this, but then I quit using.