Originally Posted by senojekips

Don't worry, the criminals will ensure that they have the upper hand. Crime is quite often a 1 on 1 thing.

My logic has a very sound base, because I live in a disarmed country that has one tenth the number of gun related crimes per capita than the US. http://www.scribd.com/doc/21670/Crim...istics-Murders

I can just imagine half a dozen persons "going for their piece" in a crowded convenience store, there'll be more dead and wounded than at Iwo Jima.

The WILD West that I'm talking about was the wild west that was responsible for the disarming of the townspeople. None of those responsible for disarming the townspeople that I have read about are written up as idiots in any of the American literature. They are in fact raised to hero status, and many of them were known gunfighters and thugs in their earlier days, hired by the townspeople because they knew that these men were not afraid to use their reputations and gunfighting skills to get the town cleaned up. That to me, suggests that the residents of the towns were sick of the violence, and potential violence bought about by having armed men in town.

It wasn't personal against you, bro, I was simply using your post to frame my thoughts (I did that earlier but it is buried pages back and I didn't want to disrupt the current flow).

Buddy, the reason WHY we have such a high crime rate (firearm related) is BECAUSE most people won't arm themselves and get training. Of course we're going to have ten times your gun crime rate: We have 100 times the guns y'all do. We are a free nation, not obliged to follow laws not aligned with our constitution. And before you go jumping on me, that is NOT a slam against your country! We simply have different laws here, and the guns are already here, and have been here for 200 years. Ban them all one wants, but they aren't going away (and I'll never give up mine - I fought for this country's freedoms, I have an honorable discharge, I have a right to my freedoms).

But put yourself in a criminal's shoes:

You're walking around wanting money for your drugs. You want my billfold. Are you REALLY going to take your tinkertoy Jennings .22 caliber rusty revolver and kill me while I am armed with a Kimber .45 with Ranger STX rounds, 2 spare mags, and 25 YEARS of practice training for that very scenario? Will you take that chance? Because I am NEVER alone, I am never in a place where I am alone, I am always aware of my surroundings. You may kill me in the hopes of $20, but those 10 other people that see you are going to kill you before you ever get to my wallet, period.

I don't advocate arming the uneducated. I advocate arming and educating. Your gun is always the last option, your brain always the first. Put a loaded gun in the hands of 90% of this country, then yes, it'd be catastrophe. But teach that 90%, educate them, train them, change their minds, and arming them means NO crime in this country.

Mark my words: A criminal wants an easy victim. 9 rounds of .45 ammo out of a quality gun in my hands is NOT an easy target.

Check fire before you blast me, bro - remember, this is just my opinion.

EDIT: EVERY SINGLE ONE of those shooting incidents you posted to 03 had other people around. What atrocity would have transpired if someone, ANYONE, would have stepped in with a gun and stopped those?

So much for 1-on-1 crime. You're destroying your own sources, bro. I still luv ya though!

Originally Posted by AZ_Infantry

Huh? MOST of my congregation open carries every Sunday morning - it's an after service comparison of guns and the PPD loads we carry.

And day cares, like churches, are PRIVATE - the state cannot make them deny weapons on the premises. It is the business' decision whether or not to allow.

If you are caught in a place that has a no firearms posting, they must ask you to leave and you must refuse before the police can intervene. Then the police will escort you from the property. Your CCW license is never taken away unless the state prosecutor pushes for you to lose if when they decide (if they decide) to bring trespassing charges. Otherwise, the suit is civil under tort law and your CCW is never touched.

And I know literally dozens of legal CCW holders, and not a ONE of us disarms ourselves just because a private organization has a sign posted. Not one. That's the idea of CCW - no one knows you're armed unless you're printing, which can happen, in which case they would have to prosecute you under the "we can prove he saw the sign even though he apologized and said he didn't and left" law.



Where do some people get their information? (Not meaning you specifically, bro - these are very common misconceptions spewed from every liberal that thinks they know what the hell they are talking about)

You live in Arizona. You have the luxary of very strong carry laws, both open and concealed. I live in Missouri different set of statutes. Certain places are prohibited from carry by law. Churches, bars, schools, daycares, hospitals, gov buildings. Written into our state laws and enforceable by statute, Different state different laws.

I can confiscate and recommend revocation of a CWW under the statute.And immeditatly suspend a CCW for the following.

1. Carry of a concealed weapon in an unauthorized location (see above) I may also confiscate the weapon in question.

2. Domestic Violence. I may also confiscate all fire arms in the residence pending outcome/conviction.

3. Any crime involving violence to include assault 3rd degree.

4. Any type/weight of controlled substance.

5.Any crime involving intoxication

I don't have to wait on the DA I make my recommendation under law to the state dept' of revenue. If DOR suspends or revokes then the former CCW holder has to appeal thru them.

Business can place placards prohibiting carry of CCW but the law has no teeth and the most that can be done is a trespass warning (infraction) unless it's one of the locations specified by law.

Florida is a pioneer in the Conceal Carry Movement. We started this back in the 1980s and our crime rate has been dropping ever since. Florida is a shall issue state. Which means if you the law abiding citizen pass the requirements for the CCW Program then the state must issue you one.

Must be 21 Years of Age or Older
No Criminal Record
Must be an American Citizen and a Resident of Florida for 6 months or more
Must pass Required CCW Class and prove to an NRA Certified Firearms Instructor that you can handle a firearm safely and hit the target
Must submit a passport photo along with a check and finger prints
If you pass the background check and everything is in order the state must issue you a CCW Permit within 90 days

Locations that you cannot carry at.
· Any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05
· any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station;
· any detention facility, prison, or jail;
· any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom;
· any polling place;
· any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district;
· any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof;
· any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms;
· any school administration building;
· any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;
· any elementary or secondary school facility;
· any area vocational technical center;
· any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile;
· inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or
· any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law

Florida law has what is called the castle doctrine.

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.--

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or

(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or

(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or

(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person's dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.

(5) As used in this section, the term:

(a) "Dwelling" means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.

(b) "Residence" means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.

(c) "Vehicle" means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.





As a Law Enforcement Officer I can carry anywhere and every if I am allowed under my department SOPs to carry my firearm off-duty under the authority and powers as if I was one duty. I am so I do so. I can use my firearm in a law enforcement role (offensive action) when I'm off duty if I need to.

If I was not allowed to carry off duty as a LEO then under Florida law I am allowed to carry as if I had a CCW Permit. If I carry under this right then I am only allowed to carry under the provisions of the Florida CCW Permit and I can only use my firearm in defensive action.

I have a CCW Permit and I carry under the provisions as a Off Duty Officer. Also under Federal Law, HR 218 Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act. I can carry nation wide (fifty state and all territories ) with a certain amount of restrictions (modeled after the Florida restrictions) if I am allowed to carry off-duty by my PD. I can carry in places like Washington DC where only police can own and carry firearms. This law was passed because of the higher crime rates in places like Washington DC and Chicago because of their gun bans from law abiding citizens. I wish HR 218 covered all citizens of the USA and not just Current and Retired LEOs. I see that has class discrimination but I believe if enough officers push the issue then a bill will be passed in which there is a Federal Law which states anyone with a CCW Permit can carry in all fifty states and territories.



Oh and in Florida the "No Gun" Signs posted in businesses have no legal authority. The store owner/manager must inform you in person that you cannot carry in the store. If you do not listen to their request then a Law Enforcement Officer must inform you. if you still do not listen then you will be charged with Trespassing with a firearm which is a felony. But here is a catch.... if it's concealed then how does the store owner/manager know? They don't hence why there are never cases with this issue.

The idea behind conceal carry is that the criminal does not know how is carrying a firearm. It is much like the mind field. Anyone could be armed and everyone could not be armed. It's the risk that the criminal takes.

Originally Posted by AZ_Infantry

And before you go jumping on me, that is NOT a slam against your country!

I wish it was.

Our present gun laws stink in my opinion. They are an ill considered knee jerk reaction to the actions of one person, who, if the law enforcement body's were doing their business, should never have been allowed to own firearms in the first place. This man was known to have issues.

What I'm trying to say is that moderation is the answer before you end up like us, due to the actions of a few. although I'm deeply distrustful of CCW, to me, it's a bit like saying there are a few rogue countries out there with WMD, the answer is, for every country to have them.

I owned a small arsenal of weapons that would have me thrown in jail today (Not as many as Luis though). I lost virtually everything I treasured in life other than my family.

I would hate to see the anti gunners have their way in the US. I dislike their aims, and the few that I have met personally (Australian) were what I call "Namby Pambys" totally lacking in moral, intestinal and physical fortitude. In short, they stand for everything I detest in a person.

Guns are good.

Originally Posted by justin1552

Guns are good.

Visit :

http://www.lneilsmith.org/

Libertarian science fiction author. There are two free e-books on his site presented as cartoons which I liked...

Lonnie Courtney Clay

CCW, rules, rules, rules.

Why even bother carrying if you can't carry anywhere?

Well, reading the list I can see why a person shouldn't be allowed to carry it in those places mentioned.
But basically other than that, should be fine.

I read an article recently, which I have now mislaid, where some big time villain, or ex-villain in USA was explaining that the very worst thing for USA was a ban on owning guns. He said that the criminals could always get all the guns they want, and to take arms from all the good guys would be playing right into their hands, thank you kindly!

That's exactly what I agree with and inevitably will happen. Criminals break laws, they don't care what the government does.