Originally Posted by senojekips

Judging from the debate so far, I'd say that, gun ownership in the USA will completely self destruct, within the next 20 years. If concealed carry laws are bought in, halve or quarter that time frame from the time of inception.

A few more high school killing sprees or sniper attacks and it could change a whole lot sooner.

Your behind. Concealed carry has been a fact of life in alot of states for at least 20 years.

Major liability, getting the weapons into the country is not the issue, it will be the ownership of banned weapons. Here in Australia there is a possible $50,000 fine and/or jail time if you are found with banned weapons. I don't think anyone has been hit with it as yet, but the law is there to be used, depending on how seriously the judge views the case. Never the less, the penalties are serious enough to keep most people from wanting to have illegal firearms.

As for the old argument about knives, the answer is the same in the US as it is here. When was the last time you read or heard about a person killing 5, 10 or 20 persons with a knife or conducting a drive by stabbing?

What you say about the anti gun lobby chipping away at the gun laws is correct, but if the US had introduced a few laws 20 years ago, this problem would never have reached the stage where it is now, where more and more people are siding with the anti gunners, because of the high gun crime rate. The longer it is left the worse the changes are going to be in the end..

If they intend to take my surplus ComBloc rifles, they can take them from my cold, dead hands.

Don't ever underestimate your law enforcement agencies, if the laws are introduced, they will enforce them and depending on how determined you are to not hand your weapons over, they may very well take them from your cold dead hands.

When the laws were introduced here in Australia, I had similar thoughts until I found out the consequences of having illegal weapons. I used to hunt regularly and was going to keep my hunting trifles, there was no way they were going to force me out of my pleasure. In the end it just all became too much trouble, with gun safes, spot inspections and rising fees.

years ago i used to think nothing of walking through the outskirts of my town with my rifle over my shoulder. I guarantee if I tried it today I would have the STAR Force (SWAT team) surrounding me, and would no doubt be charged with something or another.

Yeah, it stinks! But that's the way it is going.

Originally Posted by 03USMC

Your behind. Concealed carry has been a fact of life in alot of states for at least 20 years.

I stand corrected, but the remainder of my statement still stands.

If this is the case, how come that it never prevented any of these crimes. I don't know, but is there a case where an armed student or bystander has prevented or resolved a school shooting? I know it has been the case on a few exceptional circumstances for other crimes.

Below is a list of school shootings since 1996 and to me it seems that USA leads the way by a long shot (excuse the pun)

Feb. 2, 1996
Moses Lake, Wash. Two students and one teacher killed, one other wounded when 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire on his algebra class.
March 13, 1996
Dunblane, Scotland 16 children and one teacher killed at Dunblane Primary School by Thomas Hamilton, who then killed himself. 10 others wounded in attack.
Feb. 19, 1997
Bethel, Alaska Principal and one student killed, two others wounded by Evan Ramsey, 16.
March 1997
Sanaa, Yemen Eight people (six students and two others) at two schools killed by Mohammad Ahman al-Naziri.
Oct. 1, 1997
Pearl, Miss. Two students killed and seven wounded by Luke Woodham, 16, who was also accused of killing his mother. He and his friends were said to be outcasts who worshiped Satan.
Dec. 1, 1997
West Paducah, Ky. Three students killed, five wounded by Michael Carneal, 14, as they participated in a prayer circle at Heath High School.
Dec. 15, 1997
Stamps, Ark. Two students wounded. Colt Todd, 14, was hiding in the woods when he shot the students as they stood in the parking lot.
March 24, 1998
Jonesboro, Ark. Four students and one teacher killed, ten others wounded outside as Westside Middle School emptied during a false fire alarm. Mitchell Johnson, 13, and Andrew Golden, 11, shot at their classmates and teachers from the woods.
April 24, 1998
Edinboro, Pa. One teacher, John Gillette, killed, two students wounded at a dance at James W. Parker Middle School. Andrew Wurst, 14, was charged.
May 19, 1998
Fayetteville, Tenn. One student killed in the parking lot at Lincoln County High School three days before he was to graduate. The victim was dating the ex-girlfriend of his killer, 18-year-old honor student Jacob Davis.
May 21, 1998
Springfield, Ore. Two students killed, 22 others wounded in the cafeteria at Thurston High School by 15-year-old Kip Kinkel. Kinkel had been arrested and released a day earlier for bringing a gun to school. His parents were later found dead at home.
June 15, 1998
Richmond, Va. One teacher and one guidance counselor wounded by a 14-year-old boy in the school hallway.
April 20, 1999
Littleton, Colo. 14 students (including killers) and one teacher killed, 23 others wounded at Columbine High School in the nation's deadliest school shooting. Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, had plotted for a year to kill at least 500 and blow up their school. At the end of their hour-long rampage, they turned their guns on themselves.
April 28, 1999
Taber, Alberta, Canada One student killed, one wounded at W. R. Myers High School in first fatal high school shooting in Canada in 20 years. The suspect, a 14-year-old boy, had dropped out of school after he was severely ostracized by his classmates.
May 20, 1999
Conyers, Ga. Six students injured at Heritage High School by Thomas Solomon, 15, who was reportedly depressed after breaking up with his girlfriend.
Nov. 19, 1999
Deming, N.M. Victor Cordova Jr., 12, shot and killed Araceli Tena, 13, in the lobby of Deming Middle School.
Dec. 6, 1999
Fort Gibson, Okla. Four students wounded as Seth Trickey, 13, opened fire with a 9mm semiautomatic handgun at Fort Gibson Middle School. Dec. 7, 1999
Veghel, Netherlands One teacher and three students wounded by a 17-year-old student.
Feb. 29, 2000
Mount Morris Township, Mich. Six-year-old Kayla Rolland shot dead at Buell Elementary School near Flint, Mich. The assailant was identified as a six-year-old boy with a .32-caliber handgun.
March 2000
Branneburg, Germany One teacher killed by a 15-year-old student, who then shot himself. The shooter has been in a coma ever since.

March 10, 2000
Savannah, Ga. Two students killed by Darrell Ingram, 19, while leaving a dance sponsored by Beach High School.
May 26, 2000
Lake Worth, Fla. One teacher, Barry Grunow, shot and killed at Lake Worth Middle School by Nate Brazill, 13, with .25-caliber semiautomatic pistol on the last day of classes.
Sept. 26, 2000
New Orleans, La. Two students wounded with the same gun during a fight at Woodson Middle School.
Jan. 17, 2001
Baltimore, Md. One student shot and killed in front of Lake Clifton Eastern High School. Jan. 18, 2001
Jan, Sweden One student killed by two boys, ages 17 and 19.
March 5, 2001
Santee, Calif. Two killed and 13 wounded by Charles Andrew Williams, 15, firing from a bathroom at Santana High School.
March 7, 2001
Williamsport, Pa. Elizabeth Catherine Bush, 14, wounded student Kimberly Marchese in the cafeteria of Bishop Neumann High School; she was depressed and frequently teased.
March 22, 2001
Granite Hills, Calif. One teacher and three students wounded by Jason Hoffman, 18, at Granite Hills High School. A policeman shot and wounded Hoffman.
March 30, 2001
Gary, Ind. One student killed by Donald R. Burt, Jr., a 17-year-old student who had been expelled from Lew Wallace High School. Nov. 12, 2001
Caro, Mich. Chris Buschbacher, 17, took two hostages at the Caro Learning Center before killing himself.
Jan. 15, 2002
New York, N.Y. A teenager wounded two students at Martin Luther King Jr. High School. Feb. 19, 2002
Freising, Germany Two killed in Eching by a man at the factory from which he had been fired; he then traveled to Freising and killed the headmaster of the technical school from which he had been expelled. He also wounded another teacher before killing himself. April 26, 2002
Erfurt, Germany 13 teachers, two students, and one policeman killed, ten wounded by Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, at the Johann Gutenberg secondary school. Steinhaeuser then killed himself. April 29, 2002
Vlasenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina One teacher killed, one wounded by Dragoslav Petkovic, 17, who then killed himself. October 28, 2002
Tucson, Ariz. Robert S. Flores Jr., 41, a student at the nursing school at the University of Arizona, shot and killed three female professors and then himself. April 14, 2003
New Orleans, La. One 15-year-old killed, and three students wounded at John McDonogh High School by gunfire from four teenagers (none were students at the school). The motive was gang-related. April 24, 2003
Red Lion, Pa. James Sheets, 14, killed principal Eugene Segro of Red Lion Area Junior High School before killing himself. Sept. 24, 2003
Cold Spring, Minn. Two students are killed at Rocori High School by John Jason McLaughlin, 15. Sept. 28, 2004
Carmen de Patagones, Argentina Three students killed and 6 wounded by a 15-year-old Argentininan student in a town 620 miles south of Buenos Aires.
March 21, 2005
Red Lake, Minn. Jeff Weise, 16, killed grandfather and companion, then arrived at school where he killed a teacher, a security guard, 5 students, and finally himself, leaving a total of 10 dead.
Nov. 8, 2005
Jacksboro, Tenn. One 15-year-old shot and killed an assistant principal at Campbell County High School and seriously wounded two other administrators.
Aug. 24, 2006
Essex, Vt. Christopher Williams, 27, looking for his ex-girlfriend at Essex Elementary School, shot two teachers, killing one and wounding another. Before going to the school, he had killed the ex-girlfriend's mother. Sept. 13, 2006
Montreal, Canada Kimveer Gill, 25, opened fire with a semiautomatic weapon at Dawson College. Anastasia De Sousa, 18, died and more than a dozen students and faculty were wounded before Gill killed himself.
Sept. 26, 2006
Bailey, Colo. Adult male held six students hostage at Platte Canyon High School and then shot and killed Emily Keyes, 16, and himself. Sept. 29, 2006
Cazenovia, Wis. A 15-year-old student shot and killed Weston School principal John Klang.
Oct. 3, 2006
Nickel Mines, Pa. 32-year-old Carl Charles Roberts IV entered the one-room West Nickel Mines Amish School and shot 10 schoolgirls, ranging in age from 6 to 13 years old, and then himself. Five of the girls and Roberts died.
Jan. 3, 2007
Tacoma, Wash. Douglas Chanthabouly, 18, shot fellow student Samnang Kok, 17, in the hallway of Henry Foss High School.
April 16, 2007
Blacksburg, Va. A 23-year-old Virginia Tech student, Cho Seung-Hui, killed two in a dorm, then killed 30 more 2 hours later in a classroom building. His suicide brought the death toll to 33, making the shooting rampage the most deadly in U.S. history. Fifteen others were wounded.
Sept. 21, 2007
Dover, Del. A Delaware State Univesity Freshman, Loyer D. Brandon, shot and wounded two other Freshman students on the University campus. Brandon is being charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless engagement, as well as a gun charge.
Oct. 10, 2007
Cleveland, Ohio A 14-year-old student at a Cleveland high school, Asa H. Coon, shot and injured two students and two teachers before he shot and killed himself. The victims' injuries were not life-threatening. Nov. 7, 2007
Tuusula, Finland An 18-year-old student in southern Finland shot and killed five boys, two girls, and the female principal at Jokela High School. At least 10 others were injured. The gunman shot himself and is in the hospital in critical condition.

Well because in the cases that concern the US. In most states schools are a "weapons free zone." The only persons who may possess firearms in these zones are Law Enforcement. Same goes for churches, day cares, and any establishment who's main business is the selling and consumption of alcoholic/intoxicating beverages.

So even a legal CCW permit holder can not carry or possess a firearm in these places under penalty of law to include fines, jail time, and loss of CCW and or firearm ownership priveliges.

A person found to be caring a legally registered weapon even with a CCW permit in any of these places. Maybe arrested, weapon and permit confiscated and placed in custody until such time as bond maybe set by the presiding court or until a hearing in front of the presiding court.

Thats why the CCW hasn't prevented any of the above. Because due to back ground checks, application fees and required courses. CCW holders tend to be a pretty law abidding bunch.

BTW domestic violence complaint gets your CCW yanked on scene also.

In reality, I wouldn't do anything if they came to confiscate my weapons.

If things were REALLY bad, like the US was going police state, I'd have to resist. I'd die, but then again, they aren't rights unless you're willing to fight for them. I wouldn't sacrifice my life for a pair of rifles that cost me $220 unless something awful was going on in the country.

Originally Posted by major liability

but then again, they aren't rights unless you're willing to fight for them. I wouldn't sacrifice my life for a pair of rifles that cost me $220 unless something awful was going on in the country.

How true. There are far better ways to approach this problem.

(1) Put something (lots of things) away for a rainy day.
(2) Don't tell ANYONE, not anyone at all, that you have them or where they might be. And make sure that if they are found they are not on your premises nor able to be linked to you in any way. Buy them at a swap meet or whatever, use your imagination.
(3) Comply with all other gun laws to the Nth degree. Don't attract attention to yourself, nor talk in a manner that might arouse suspicions (such as giving advice like this on a public forum) I can do it, because all this comes to me as a result of hindsight,.... unfortunately.

For me and many like me it is too late. I tried to obey the law and before I knew what had happened, the little that remained was not worth keeping.

Originally Posted by senojekips

I must agree with Monty, the only chance that improves with everybody being armed, is the chance that the criminal will not hesitate to use the advantage that he has.

Just put yourself in his shoes for a moment. Here you are sticking up the local convenience store and you know that the proprietor is armed. You are nervous, and he makes a move you had not counted on. Is he reaching for his weapon??.... Are you going to wait and see, and perhaps start wearing angry holes in your hide or are you going to stop him.

You have already broken the law and you look like you could die at a moments notice, are you going to just stand there, or maybe you see yourself as being able to outrun a .38 special or .357. No, you have gun in your hand and it's already pointed in the right direction, if you pull the trigger now, you might just stand a chance of walking away... for the moment.

And then the 10 other ARMED, LAW ABIDING patrons put 50 rounds into you?

Dude, your logic is severely flawed.

You are looking at it like crime is a 1-on-1 thing. Columbine, anyone? If even one of the wimps had a gun that would have never happened, because that 1 person would have drawn down and filled him with a mag of 230 grain instant intelligence. If EVERYONE in that school was armed, he'd of just got 100 times as dead 100 times faster, and everyone buys a beer to the dude that got the first shot off and capped his ass.

Where are you EVER alone? If you're in an alley at 0200 ad no one else is around, then good citizen or not, you're a waste of oxygen for being too stupid to know that situational awareness trumps anything else and, personally, I'd laugh at both the good person and the bad person blowing holes in each other.

Arming law abiding citizens works. The "old west" you talk about happened AFTER the idiot sheriffs made people disarm coming into town, and then the criminals just started illegally getting them into the town.

History is your friend, bro.

Originally Posted by 03USMC

Well because in the cases that concern the US. In most states schools are a "weapons free zone." The only persons who may possess firearms in these zones are Law Enforcement. Same goes for churches, day cares, and any establishment who's main business is the selling and consumption of alcoholic/intoxicating beverages.

So even a legal CCW permit holder can not carry or possess a firearm in these places under penalty of law to include fines, jail time, and loss of CCW and or firearm ownership priveliges.

A person found to be caring a legally registered weapon even with a CCW permit in any of these places. Maybe arrested, weapon and permit confiscated and placed in custody until such time as bond maybe set by the presiding court or until a hearing in front of the presiding court.

Thats why the CCW hasn't prevented any of the above. Because due to back ground checks, application fees and required courses. CCW holders tend to be a pretty law abidding bunch.

BTW domestic violence complaint gets your CCW yanked on scene also.

Huh? MOST of my congregation open carries every Sunday morning - it's an after service comparison of guns and the PPD loads we carry.

And day cares, like churches, are PRIVATE - the state cannot make them deny weapons on the premises. It is the business' decision whether or not to allow.

If you are caught in a place that has a no firearms posting, they must ask you to leave and you must refuse before the police can intervene. Then the police will escort you from the property. Your CCW license is never taken away unless the state prosecutor pushes for you to lose if when they decide (if they decide) to bring trespassing charges. Otherwise, the suit is civil under tort law and your CCW is never touched.

And I know literally dozens of legal CCW holders, and not a ONE of us disarms ourselves just because a private organization has a sign posted. Not one. That's the idea of CCW - no one knows you're armed unless you're printing, which can happen, in which case they would have to prosecute you under the "we can prove he saw the sign even though he apologized and said he didn't and left" law.



Where do some people get their information? (Not meaning you specifically, bro - these are very common misconceptions spewed from every liberal that thinks they know what the hell they are talking about)

Don't worry, the criminals will ensure that they have the upper hand. Crime is quite often a 1 on 1 thing.

My logic has a very sound base, because I live in a disarmed country that has one tenth the number of gun related crimes per capita than the US. http://www.scribd.com/doc/21670/Crim...istics-Murders

I can just imagine half a dozen persons "going for their piece" in a crowded convenience store, there'll be more dead and wounded than at Iwo Jima.

The WILD West that I'm talking about was the wild west that was responsible for the disarming of the townspeople. None of those responsible for disarming the townspeople that I have read about are written up as idiots in any of the American literature. They are in fact raised to hero status, and many of them were known gunfighters and thugs in their earlier days, hired by the townspeople because they knew that these men were not afraid to use their reputations and gunfighting skills to get the town cleaned up. That to me, suggests that the residents of the towns were sick of the violence, and potential violence bought about by having armed men in town.