Really really really tired of it. I'm tired of people who spout out phrases like "western hypocracy" and "because it seperates us from the terrorists" etc. etc. etc.

I don't care what hyporacy is done so long as it improves my quality of life. I think we already have enough that seperate us from the terrorists in that I can live a free, prosperous life in my country.

I'm tired of people who support the "no torture" bill who'se only argument is ideological. But it's been on a wide variety of issues since 2001 not just that one.

Arn't we supposed to be a "logical" people? Why does it seem that everything in politics that wins has no logical basis anymore but an ideological one?

Well I am tired of it. I'm tired of ideology.

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

I'm tired of people .......only argument is ideological........"logical" people......politics.......ideological..... Well I am tired of it.
I'm tired of ideology.

IDEOLOGY/IDEOLOGICAL = THE STUDY OF IDEAS; ABSTRACT THOUGHT; IDEAS ON WHICH SYSTEMS ARE BASED.

I don't mean to criticize - but - your very own argument is ideological in nature. It presupposes a personal belief system based on your own ideas, systems and values.

That does not make it wrong, it just means that it is ideological by the very nature of being a personal belief system.

Every person who questions existance or the "order" of life have a personal ideology. That is one of the reasons that you and I can argue both sides of any topic or issue. Sometimes we will agree and sometimes we won't.

That is what makes us "human".

No you're taking the term "ideology" into its most abstract form. Let me clarify.

What I mean is when an argument appeals to an ideological motive instead of a logical one, especially in the extremist rhelm of politics. Such an example is in the "no torture" ban. Where one side will say "we need to use techniques X, Y, and Z that would be prohibited under the 'no torture' ban because if we do not, Americans, maybe you, will die." Now if that argument is supported with evidence it is a logical argument. However, recently I hear the counterargument of "If we are to torture these people it would be unamerican. We would bring ourselves down to their level if we where to use these techniques!" That isn't a logical argument, that is an appeal to ideology and I am DELETED tired of it.

This is not meant to be myopic on the torture ammendment at all, I'm just using it as an example of a MUCH MUCH MUCH larger issue.

Guy 1 says we need to do X, Y, and Z to keep our economy going, our society stable, and protect our lives. Guy 2 says he doesn't care what happens to our economy, society, or lives because what he cares about is ideology.

I want a return of practical, logical discourse like we saw in the president's address tonight instead of this ideological argumentataive style which sounds seductive but has next to zero logic behind it.

I agree with Whispering, alot of ideaology (especialy left wing ideaology) has to do with "feelgoodism" or feeling good about things or ideas, which sometimes has zero logic behind it other than it makes you feel good at the moment.

Just becuase it feels good doesn't mean it is good.

Shooting heroin up your arm feels good, doesn't mean it is good.

Alot of politcal correctness is about "feelgoodism", about not hurting anybody's feelings ect. If only people didn't mind hurting Hitlers feelings by a premtive strike when he was starting to rise in power things would have been different. But no, Hitler had feelings too you know.

The same thing goes on today, thats why I have been saying this on this a while now that Europe will be doomed within around 50 years because they have sucumed to this feel good fantasy.

If a person is known terrorist or captured taking up arms against us on the side of the terrorist, I don't comprehend why we can't us any means possible to extract information from them, which includes torture if need be, when the information gathered may save lives. It seems totaly ilogical not to do this, the only reason not to is because it doesn't "feel good".

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

No you're taking the term "ideology" into its most abstract form. Let me clarify.

What I mean is when an argument appeals to an ideological motive instead of a logical one, especially in the extremist rhelm of politics. Such an example is in the "no torture" ban. Where one side will say "we need to use techniques X, Y, and Z that would be prohibited under the 'no torture' ban because if we do not, Americans, maybe you, will die." Now if that argument is supported with evidence it is a logical argument. However, recently I hear the counterargument of "If we are to torture these people it would be unamerican. We would bring ourselves down to their level if we where to use these techniques!" That isn't a logical argument, that is an appeal to ideology and I am f*cking tired of it.

This is not meant to be myopic on the torture ammendment at all, I'm just using it as an example of a MUCH MUCH MUCH larger issue.

Guy 1 says we need to do X, Y, and Z to keep our economy going, our society stable, and protect our lives. Guy 2 says he doesn't care what happens to our economy, society, or lives because what he cares about is ideology.

I want a return of practical, logical discourse like we saw in the president's address tonight instead of this ideological argumentataive style which sounds seductive but has next to zero logic behind it.

So what you are saying is that you are sick and tired of everyone who disagrees with your ideology?

Oh come on Gladius, so now ideology is mainly a leftist deficiency? The American right has no specific set of idea's on which they base their course of action?

If a person is known terrorist or captured taking up arms against us on the side of the terrorist, I don't comprehend why we can't us any means possible to extract information from them, which includes torture if need be, when the information gathered may save lives. It seems totaly ilogical not to do this, the only reason not to is because it doesn't "feel good".

The illogical thought behind not doing so:
1) So you pick up this guy, beat the crap out of him and he knows..... diddly. You reckon he lies or hold back so you do a littel watertorture combined with some electricity because he has got to no something. Again he says he knows nothing....hhmm, let's put him away somewhere and work on him longer. Finally the guys actually does know nothing, that is what I call illogical.
2) Suppose you have a clever guy. After being beaten senseless once or twice he'll sing like a canary. Yes sir, I have a nuclear device somewhere hidden in the Rockies.... whatever you want me to say sir.
3) Of course there are more than a few laws prohibiting such acts.
4) For the connaiseurs in our midst; I doubt that this was the deeper meaning of "We the people...." we are all created equal unless we think you might have something to do with terrorism. Proof for arrest, we don't need any, we'll beat you just as long as it takes so that you'll say you are quilty.

Again, I might be rambling again but I do get a bit frightened if you seriously propose to unleash the "torture first as questions later"- policy.

The US doesnt torture, it pressures. Why send a message to the Terries that if they get captured its going to be like a stay in the hilton for them.

Originally Posted by MontyB

So what you are saying is that you are sick and tired of everyone who disagrees with your ideology?

Jesus Christ would you please listen for once! No, I'm bringing up a recent example of an argument based on ideology so as to clear up what I'm talking about. Logical arguments for the "no torute" ban are great. Logical arguments for anything are great. I'm just tired of having ideological arguments being so extremely pervasive whereas logical ones are downplayed.

The US doesnt torture, it pressures. Why send a message to the Terries that if they get captured its going to be like a stay in the hilton for them.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Whispering Death

Arn't we supposed to be a "logical" people? Why does it seem that everything in politics that wins has no logical basis anymore but an ideological one?

Ideology

1. The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture.
2. A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.

Logic is the ability to reason and is used to credit or discredit an idea or ideology. Its possible to be logical and ideological at the same time.

Politics is a dispute of ideas. A political party is a group of people who support the same beliefs- the same ideology. It's not possible to have politics without ideology.

So my question is what is your logical and what is your ideology?