"Pearls before swine"

I should've have known better than to attempt an informed discussion on the symbolism of a movie on the open side of the forum.

Sparta was not a democracy and I guess your point in comparing Spartan state with today's western democracies is shameful and wrong. Plus it was the Greek states that committ a crime on persian soil which resulted in invasion of Greece by Xerxes the great.

It's like that, in 2000 yrs from now, people start rooting for Al-Qaeda which attacked the so-called empire of the day and made that very same empire to wage war. It's wrong morally, historically and factually.

While I do understand your point of view I think I completely disagree with it and guess you are taking the wrong side of the argument.

Read this for more info please:

http://www.iranian.com/Arts/2007/March/Kar/index.html

Today, no other country resembles ancient Persia as closely as does the United States. If any country should sympathize with, rather than celebrate, Persia’s quagmire in Greece it is the United States. Few events in history mirror America’s war on terror as closely as Persia’s war on Greece.

It was Persia's Sep 11th

In 498 BCE, Athens carried out a terrorist attack on Sardis, a major Persian city, which made 9/11 seem like child’s play. Aristagoras, an Athenian, set fire to the “outlying parts” of Sardis trapping most of its population “in a ring of fire.” (Herodotus 5:101)

More innocent civilians died at the hands of Aristagoras than Osama bin Laden could ever hope to kill. And just as most of the world supported America’s retaliation against Al Qaeda, so did it rally in support of Persia’s attack on Athens.

The Spartans were not even targets of Persia’s attack, until they violated a universal protocol by killing a Persian messenger who Herodotus claims was asking for Sparta’s submission but in reality was probably sent by Persia’s king, Xerxes to convey the same message America sent to the entire world after 9/11: “you’re either with us, or against us.”

The Spartans were Greek Jihadists who lived only to die. They were by all accounts ruthless savages who murdered Greek slaves known as “Helots” just for sport, cultivated a culture of thievery and rape, and practiced infanticide, as the movie ‘300’ rightly points out in its opening scenes. Sparta was not even democratic. It was an oligarchy at best. Despite knowing all this, the West continues to hail the Spartans as the saviors of Western democracy.

Yes, the Spartans died fighting a foreign invader. But so do countless terrorists, yet few would consider them “good guys.” Those who do are then not much different from Westerners who cheer for the Spartans.

Persia was drawn into a protracted war against terror, much the same way the U.S. was. Cheering for the Spartans merely because they were underdogs, is like cheering for Osama bin Laden today.

Right but you are taking the wrong side of the argument here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great#Legacy

Tells you a few of the things he did. Like create the first system of human rights, freedom of religion and others.

BD

I firmly believe that Greek city-states were not democratic at all... and that is an opinion of a persian. but again you and thousands of experts are free to believe otherwise. Who cares?

What you firmly believe and what edumacated experts firmly believe, I believe, differ.

Originally Posted by Marinerhodes

What you firmly believe and what edumacated experts firmly believe, I believe, differ.

That's fine. But it is up to the type of documents those so-called experts refer. It's easy to be an ignorant expert, right?

Greek city-states were not democratic and Sparta was an aristocratic state. Just because we know about greek city-states via lies that Herodotus spread doesnt mean that we know EVERYTHING enough. Plus the documents of ancient persia were burned by the invading arabs 1450 yrs ago.

What stretches the limits of hypocrisy is that there isn’t a single shred of archeological evidence that the Persians ever owned slaves. Yet we know that slavery was an integral cornerstone of Greek society. Aristotle’s manifesto even sanctions it. Persia, which was once a haven for runaway slaves from Egypt, Greece, and later Rome, is today branded as a slave-hungry empire by cultures which were built on slavery!

What makes Herodotus’s propaganda so difficult to refute is that it is peppered with facts. But in reality, it is a desperate diatribe. Perhaps his biggest ploy is his attempt to equate democracy with freedom. These two words are used virtually interchangeably throughout his book. And the West has swallowed it hook-line-and-sinker.

But America’s founding fathers knew better. They were not swayed by Herodotus. They implemented many safeguards to protect freedom from the pitfalls that mired Athenian democracy. Even Winston Churchill said, “Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others which have been tried.”

Democracy may well be the best form of government. But what makes America great is not so much democracy as it is its Bill Of Rights. And this is exactly what made Persia Great. Democracy can often lead to tyranny by the majority as was the case in democratic Athens, where women, slaves and foreigners did not have the right to vote.

In monarchic Persia, however, women enjoyed a level of gender equality unmatched even to this day, and slavery was not practiced. The fact is, Persia’s monarchy was more free than Athens’ democracy, all because of Persia’s Bill Of Rights.

No one exemplifies Persia’s freedom better than Herodotus himself. He describes Athens as the bastion of freedom, yet he chose to live in Persia. Xenophon, on the other hand, who actually lived in Athens, reminisces enviably about the monarchy of Cyrus The Great?

Herodotus claims Persia had enslaved most of the known world, yet we know Herodotus was not a slave. He traveled freely throughout the empire, openly criticizing it. [Herodotus was a citizen of Persian empire living in Asia Minor]

Why did Herodotus not live in Greece? Because Persia - the empire he is so quick to demonize - afforded him the very freedom to publish his scathing report of it. People want to live where their god-given rights are protected, regardless of whether its democratic or monarchic.

These god-given rights were first drafted into law by the founder of the Persian empire, Cyrus The Great. In fact, ancient Persia may well have served as the blue print for America’s Bill Of Rights.

Both Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, the architects of America’s Constitution, were great admirers and owned several copies of Xenophon’s Cyropaedia.

Worth reading again

The Greek City states were not democracies, the first theories of democracy didn't some about until the 17th century. John Locke was probably the first proponent of Democracy, although it possible it was earlier than this, I would have to delve deeper.

The Greek City States were in general Monarchies, except for Athens and a few others which were Republics.

Note: A Republic and a Democracy are not the same thing. Generally (and this is just a generalization) the difference is that Government is drawn from Aristocrats in a Republic, while in a Democracy Government is drawn from all the people. This includes not only the people who become politicians, but those who can vote in elections as well. Slavery for example, is tolerated in a Republic but not in a democracy.

Thats about the best description I can give without opening the encyclopedia.

Originally Posted by bulldogg

Sources??

You really don't need a source to confirm it. Just take courses taken by first year Poli Sci students

Read more of David Held's books about the history of democracy

Originally Posted by phoenix80

You really don't need a source to confirm it. Just take courses taken by first year Poli Sci students

Read more of David Held's books about the history of democracy

you totally missed the point. Show me what sources mmarsh used to gt his information so that I can educate myself. I didn't go to college and I am a pragmatist.