Originally Posted by PJ24

Yeah, but he's more of a benefit to the terrorists cause dead than he is alive now. Remember, martyrdom is like the "ultimate" thing in their culture. I think if he were dead, they'd definitely use it as a plus and they'd have no problems rallying even more of the ignorant masses to his cause.

The only way I could see him dead would be if WE did it, and didn't tell anyone. But, I don't see that happening.

Exactly. Which is why Im worried about killing Sadam Hussein... He would instantly become a martyr would do the same thing PJ is describing would happen with osama. He would rally more people in defence of his cause and would become more popular dead than he is alive...

Originally Posted by C/2Lt Henderson

Exactly. Which is why Im worried about killing Sadam Hussein... He would instantly become a martyr would do the same thing PJ is describing would happen with osama. He would rally more people in defence of his cause and would become more popular dead than he is alive...

Hm, it's a little different. Outside of Iraq, not many care much for or about Hussein. He isn't an icon like Bin Laden is. If anything, that would most likely spur a little more violence within certain communities in Iraq, but I don't think it would have any other far-reaching consequences.

Hussein didn't really have any 'cause' and he was pretty moderate when it came to religion, ruling down any fanatics with a hard fist. Mostly, he was just a brutal dictator/political figure.

But as a martyr, his "harbored" terrorists and the people who did support him before the war would become much more radical and violent and might join Bin Ladin...Thus making it harder and harder for the troops over there.. Just like in the American Revolution, when people are united by a common goal, fighting on home soil, with knowledge of terrain, you instantly become very tough to beat, and in the case of the Revolution, unbeatable. The goal might not be Hussein's but if he dies a martyr, more people will just have the goal to go against the United States...Wether they had a cause besides the death of Saddam or not...

Originally Posted by C/2Lt Henderson

But as a martyr, his "harbored" terrorists and the people who did support him before the war would become much more radical and violent and might join Bin Ladin...Thus making it harder and harder for the troops over there.. Just like in the American Revolution, when people are united by a common goal, fighting on home soil, with knowledge of terrain, you instantly become very tough to beat, and in the case of the Revolution, unbeatable. The goal might not be Hussein's but if he dies a martyr, more people will just have the goal to go against the United States...Wether they had a cause besides the death of Saddam or not...

That may be partially true ... but ... it depende on how the Hussein's trial is viewed by his own people.

IF the trial is viewed as a 'just' trial, then his execution will have very limited consequences. IF, on the other hand, his trial is viewed as just another case of the United States imposing its will on Iraq ... then the devil will be loose in the desert again.

There is a great deal riding on how Saddam's trial is conducted ... the assigned judges have a thankless job in front of them and Saddam is definitely not making their job any easier.

True, but most of the people know that Saddam had nothing to do with the original reason we went over there. We just happened to be over there and GW said that while he was there, he might as well finish his daddy's job...He probably figured he was killing two birds with one stone..I agree it does depend on the trial views but like I said, the majority of the Iraqi people know that the original reason was to find Osama Bin Ladin; not to attack Hussein.I hate to admit it but we did kindof impose our own will on Iraq...Its just a matter of wether or not the people view it that way...and if they do, how many of them will go to Al Queda for revenge?

Moslem fanatics weren't fond of Hussein at all.

Not just Muslims over there though...even if the majority are..

Originally Posted by C/2Lt Henderson

Not just Muslims over there though...even if the majority are..

The point I'm trying to make is that outside of his supporters within Iraq, he wasn't really any type of figure head for Moslems, he was pretty anti-religion. There wouldn't be any terrorist rallying for him, but you might see the insurgency pick up a little.

Originally Posted by PJ24

The point I'm trying to make is that outside of his supporters within Iraq, he wasn't really any type of figure head for Moslems, he was pretty anti-religion. There wouldn't be any terrorist rallying for him, but you might see the insurgency pick up a little.

I dunno PJ. It seems to me that many of the radicals are using any excuse they can to promote violence. If they can say that Saddam was secretly a devout closet Muslim and had to do what he did in the name of politics etc then they can probably make a case for martyrdom. Hard to say. A charismatic and intelligent person would be able to turn this to their advantage. Unfortunately OBL or his cronies may be just those type of people.

Originally Posted by C/2Lt Henderson

True, but most of the people know that Saddam had nothing to do with the original reason we went over there. We just happened to be over there and GW said that while he was there, he might as well finish his daddy's job...He probably figured he was killing two birds with one stone..

What?

Are you talking about why we went into Iraq?

Here's the Iraq Resolution authorizing military force:

http://www.yourcongress.com/ViewArti...rticle_id=2686

It lists several reasons why we decided that force had become neccessary. Among them were the WMD programs and stockpiles, the human rights abuses, and his ties to terrorist organizations.

Given that the official policy toward Iraq, under Clinton, was changed to "regime change" in 1998 (http://www.library.cornell.edu/colld...ast/libera.htm) and given the government structure in Iraq (totalitarian dictatorship), toppling the regime and breaking Saddam were one in the same.

Originally Posted by C/2Lt Henderson

I agree it does depend on the trial views but like I said, the majority of the Iraqi people know that the original reason was to find Osama Bin Ladin; not to attack Hussein.

I don't think that was their view.

Originally Posted by C/2Lt Henderson

I hate to admit it but we did kindof impose our own will on Iraq...Its just a matter of wether or not the people view it that way...and if they do, how many of them will go to Al Queda for revenge?

The US shifted its strategy in Iraq about a year or so ago when the elections started in January 2005. The emphasis went from trying to break the Sunni (i.e. Saddam loyalist) insurgency by dividing and co-opting. That is, they started to peel of various factions and cut deals with them to bring them into the electoral process and to cut the ties that drew various anti-Coalition factions together.

This has left the non-Iraqi terrorists (i.e. the al Qaeda elements)increasingly isolated. As a result, we've seen a gradual, but very noticeable, shift in targets. Last year, the US and our allies were heavily targetted. Now, the targets are police stations, recruiting centers, civilian institutions. That is, the non-Iraqi terrorists and the Baathist holdouts have come to see the Iraqi people in the predominantly Sunni provinces as the bigger threat.

The Saddam trial will not rally the people for a number of reasons. First, its being done by an Iraqi court and done after the Iraqi people have legitimized a government via voting. Next, Saddam was popular with his tribe and a select group of Sunnis in Iraq. He was despised by over 70% of the population (Kurds, Shiites). Those that rallied to Saddam's defense did so already. His departure will only reduce the numbers as their hope dwindles and the country moves forward without them. Remember, the Iraqi people fighting the US and our allies used to be in power and desire to be in power again. When they see seats being filled and they can't stop the process, they will feel the pressure to join the process of be permanently left behind/outside.

Finally, when he's put to death, it will be after the Iraqi people have read off his long, long, long list of abuses against the Iraqi and coincidentily Muslim people. They may have admired him for standing up against the US, but there was no admiration for his brutality against fellow Muslims, except by extremists (and they're already enraged by the US).