Semper Fidelis Chief Bones.

Originally Posted by Ted

I reckon that articles like this will become more and more wide spread. I think the antagonists will get more and more agitated and react sharper. On the long run it can be one of those central issues that can divide and nation in two. Yep, this is has all the ingredients for a disaster.

of course it does. this is a major point that President George Washington tried to make to us in his farewell address. He stated that we should avoid sectionalism,or the dividing of the nation east vs. west, north vs. south...etc. Issues like this cannot be avoided. America will go to war as long as there are countries to oppose it. As long as there is a country to disagree with what we say, or provoke us, or in some way hurt our country in any way, shape, or form, we can expect to fight. Ever since Adam and Eve(not a religious discussion)took from the forbidden tree, utopias have been impossible. Humans arent perfect, and in our imperfection, we have these faults that cause us to disagree. And we will, in my humble opinion, always have these faults. People who promote world peace are simply fighting an uphill battle. There is no way that everyone in the world can agree on every thing.

Originally Posted by Ted

But AE did you include or exclude the suicide attempts? If you excluded them have you ever wondered why the tried to end their lives?

Don't make the mistake of putting your likely reason for suicide along with theirs. To the radical Islamo-facists, for example, there is more to gain from suicide that from dying by the hands of infidels (even from other "children of the Book).

Originally Posted by Ted

Why do the Red Cross, Amnesty, Human Right Watch etc write such negative articles about Gitmo?

I'd counter with, "How did we learn about the IRC's report?" That is, those reports are supposed to be confidential. I think the prevailing attitude of the human rights groups is decidedly anti-government in any form. In other words, I don't think there was much chance in satisfying them and I don't put it past the members to let naked political bias interfere with their observations.

Now, this is not to say Gitmo is perfect. I would ask any critic to view it in comparison to prison systems in past wars and judge it first by that standard and then by US standards.

Originally Posted by Ted

Luckily the people, who have been detained for about 4 years without charges, get legal counsel.... but from whom?

Two things. First, the population in Gitmo is a revolving population for the most part. That is, new ones are brought in as others as re-patriated to their country of origin. Some detainees, of course, remain. Even after thir case is heard, there are reasons to hold some of the terrorists if the evidence shows they will remain a danger to the US and our allies.

Next, from whom? Well, again, let's look at the history of POW camps. Who typically had access to outside representation? There are very good reasons to limit the interference of outside agencies. First and foremost, there's OPSEC. Sensitive operations and methodologies may be discussed. Next, you cannot be certain that the outside agencies would be honest partners. Again, if the IRC leaks their reports in an attempt to embarrass the US, who's to say Amnesty wouldn'y do the same? Also, who's to say that the IRC and AI wouldn't take an irrational position and, through their subjective prism, paint the situation inaccurately or unfairly towards the US?

In the end, there have been 200+ detainees returned to their country of origin. This speaks to a process that allows for an end to indefinite release and should be viewed with a degree of credibility and respect. After all, it's not as if the German or Japanese or Vietnamese (to use historic examples) courts in POW camps set our POWs free prior to the end of conflict (without a quid pro quo exchange, that is).

The people representing the detainees are Western trained legal experts. If those same law schools produce lawyers that will defend the Ted Kazinsky's and the Oklahoma City bombers, I think we owe them the benfit of the doubt that those same lawyers can act in the interest of their clients.

Originally Posted by Ted

Off course it pales in comparisson with a Treblinka, Auschwithz or Sobibor. But Gitmo is a very ugly stain on America's human right efforts.

Its an ugly stain because I think people aren't putting it in context.

Further, there's a bigger point to be made that can't be casually overlooked. During the Cold War, the US was constantly under bombardment by the same rights groups, even when there would be praise of Castro. The point is, just because the Cold War ended and the veil of secrecy finally fell on the Soviet's regime of repression, the same activists didn't pack up their tents and call it quits.

Let's remember that many of those people will still work furiously against our efforts and will mask themselves in groups that, on the surface, seem to have a somewhat neutral agenda. One such example is International ANSWER.
[quote=Ted]You might disagree with me but don't dismiss my thoughts, because I am not the only one who thinks so![/quote
I do disagree and will not dismiss your thoughts.

Originally Posted by Ted

Volunteering is very easy when you know that your chances of danger are slim. Again, you disagree.

What is the accident/death rate of a pilot during training?

What is the accident/death rate of a pilot flying the aircraft Bush flew?

Let's examine the entire picture before we conclude Bush had a slim chance of injury/death. Also, there's no indication Bush knew he would be turned down, especially since it's the military's nature to change qualifications to make it easier to get people into combat.

Originally Posted by Ted

But there are many people who think his silver spoon saved him from any danger during the Vietnam war.

I said as much earlier. I have little doubt that his father's connections got him into that unit.

Still, that unit did stand duty during the Cold War when we ran 24/7 nuke alert and his unit was likely active in operations dealing with Cuban airspace. I just want folks to understand that Guardsmen and Reservists in the Vietnam War served honorably and don't deserve the psudo-smearing they received the last election. They had their missions and they fulfilled their missions.

Good post AE, and I agree that the Guardsmen and Reservists do a good job. It is more against this specific man... that's all and we also agree on that too.
I still have my inhibitions about Gitmo, but that's one opinion.

Well, I'm all for constant monitoring of the Gitmo situation and wouldn't think of closing it to international inspection. I don't want it to spiral out of control. I just think folks should remember to keep it in perspective and to give the US the benefit of the doubt and not believe every bad story that the media hypes (like the flushing of a Koran that never happened, but you can't put that toothpaste back in the tube).

The fact that the goodwill vanished is not so much a measure of George W. Considering the initial cynical reaction of those on the Left to the attacks of 9/11, I believe that sentiment to pillory the US was present prior to Bush. They hated Reagan, after all, and wouldn't hear of his policies being anything short of pushing the world toward nuclear war.

Anyway, I appreciate you voicing your concerns and making them known. Reasoned pressure, such as yours, toward policies a person finds objectionable will often have greater effect than hysterical rants.

Any one else feel that Osama is dead of natural causes by now?

I reckon Osama is like gonorreah! Just when you think you've got rid of it, it plays up on the worst moment possible!

I think he is dead for what it's worth. It is real easy with today's technology to fake tapes made by him etc.

Originally Posted by Marinerhodes

I think he is dead for what it's worth. It is real easy with today's technology to fake tapes made by him etc.

If he were dead and the tapes WERE faked ... the CIA etc would know, and GW and the boys would be screaming it from the rooftops all across this nation ... GW needs ALL of the help he can get ... his numbers are in the sub sub sub basement .......

Originally Posted by Marinerhodes

I think he is dead for what it's worth. It is real easy with today's technology to fake tapes made by him etc.

Yeah, but he's more of a benefit to the terrorists cause dead than he is alive now. Remember, martyrdom is like the "ultimate" thing in their culture. I think if he were dead, they'd definitely use it as a plus and they'd have no problems rallying even more of the ignorant masses to his cause.

The only way I could see him dead would be if WE did it, and didn't tell anyone. But, I don't see that happening.